JS of A #2 - spoilerish question

[Carl Fink]

Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got him
kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense' loophole?
And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize [Ah, the
good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his original
Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he lost before his
second and never regained (until now). If he uses "electrical vision" we'll
be sure.

[Michael Wood]

Post by Carl Fink
Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got him
kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense' loophole?
And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize [Ah, the
good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his original
Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he lost before his
second and never regained (until now). If he uses "electrical vision" we'll
be sure.
--

Of course, the big thing is that he comes from a DIFFERENT future to that
depicted in the current LSH. That implies that branching timelines exist ie
multiverse. Though Hypertime would also be an accountable option.

Michael Wood

[Daniel McEwen]

Post by Michael Wood

Post by Carl Fink
Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got
him kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense'
loophole? And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize
[Ah, the good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his
original Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he
lost before his second and never regained (until now). If he uses
"electrical vision"

we'll

Post by Carl Fink
be sure.

Of course, the big thing is that he comes from a DIFFERENT future to
that depicted in the current LSH. That implies that branching
timelines exist ie multiverse. Though Hypertime would also be an
accountable option.

I'm pretty happy with this. My guess is that Thom somehow survived Zero
Hour intact. He must have vanished before merging with his SW6
counterpart (who was, in fact, a blip from Zero Hour rather than one of
the actual SW6).

[Hal Shipman]

Post by Daniel McEwen

Post by Michael Wood

Post by Carl Fink
Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got
him kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense'
loophole? And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize
[Ah, the good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his
original Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he
lost before his second and never regained (until now). If he uses
"electrical vision"

we'll

Post by Carl Fink
be sure.

Of course, the big thing is that he comes from a DIFFERENT future to
that depicted in the current LSH. That implies that branching
timelines exist ie multiverse. Though Hypertime would also be an
accountable option.

I'm pretty happy with this. My guess is that Thom somehow survived Zero
Hour intact. He must have vanished before merging with his SW6
counterpart (who was, in fact, a blip from Zero Hour rather than one of
the actual SW6).

In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).

Hal.

I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"

[Carl Fink]

Post by Hal Shipman
In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).

Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

[Carl Fink]

Post by Carl Fink
Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

"For the Man Who Has Everything." Not WHTTMOT at all.

[Hal Shipman]

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Carl Fink
Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

"For the Man Who Has Everything." Not WHTTMOT at all.

I took that as ambiguous. It implies that the story might have
happened (or a post-Crisis-style reworking of it happening) or it
might just be a reference for us as readers.

Hal.


I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"

[Jay Rudin]

Post by Hal Shipman

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Carl Fink
Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

"For the Man Who Has Everything." Not WHTTMOT at all.

I took that as ambiguous. It implies that the story might have
happened (or a post-Crisis-style reworking of it happening) or it
might just be a reference for us as readers.

I took it as a suggestion that the story might take place again soon. The
entire Annual read like an attempt to re-set the earth closer to the
traditional Earth-1, and to set up future stories.

Jay Rudin

[Hal Shipman]

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Hal Shipman
In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).

Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

I believe that the intent of the issue is that everything is in
continuity, establishing some of the new background for New Earth.
the two things off the top of my head are seeing the "superboy" we saw
referenced in IC and some background on the villians in Donner/Johns'
Superman run. But I can't recall any confirmation that it is in
continuity and in the wake of Infinite Crisis, who the heck knows?

I tend to believe that unless a story is labelled as out of continuity
(Elseworlds, Imaginary Story, etc), then the intention is that it is
to be considered in continuity. Of course, as soon as the issue hits
the stands, all bets could be off.

Hal.

I don't wear no Stetson
But I'm willing to bet, son
That I'm as big a Texan as you are
- Robert Earl Keen, "Amarillo Highway"

[Glenn Simpson]

Post by Hal Shipman

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Hal Shipman
In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).

Is that issue itself in continuity? It also brings back other pre-Crisis
stuff, including the "real" Bizarros and Htrae, the kryptonite spectrum, and
a specific reference to "What Ever Happened To The Man Of Tomorrow" by Moore
(the Black Mercy).

I believe that the intent of the issue is that everything is in
continuity, establishing some of the new background for New Earth.
the two things off the top of my head are seeing the "superboy" we saw
referenced in IC and some background on the villians in Donner/Johns'
Superman run. But I can't recall any confirmation that it is in
continuity and in the wake of Infinite Crisis, who the heck knows?
I tend to believe that unless a story is labelled as out of continuity
(Elseworlds, Imaginary Story, etc), then the intention is that it is
to be considered in continuity. Of course, as soon as the issue hits
the stands, all bets could be off.
Hal.

I think the working theory after Infinite Crisis is that you can't be
sure that something is in the new continuity until it's confirmed in a
comic published after Infinite Crisis. So this would appear to be the
new Krypton, Bizarros, etc.

[Tony]

Post by Hal Shipman

Post by Michael Wood

Post by Carl Fink
Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got
him kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense'
loophole? And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize
[Ah, the good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. �And he seems to have his
original Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he
lost before his second and never regained (until now). �If he uses
"electrical vision"

we'll

Post by Carl Fink
be sure.

Of course, the big thing is that he comes from a DIFFERENT future to
that depicted in the current LSH. That implies that branching
timelines exist ie multiverse. Though Hypertime would also be an
accountable option.

I'm pretty happy with this. �My guess is that Thom somehow survived Zero
Hour intact. �He must have vanished before merging with his SW6
counterpart (who was, in fact, a blip from Zero Hour rather than one of
the actual SW6).

In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).
Hal.

--geez, are they deliberately trying to muddy up the waters of
Superman continuity? I mean we don't know which past is the real one,
or whether they all are, or whethere there are bits and pieces of each
or if there's a new history. I agree with another poster that said
Superman's history is quickly becoming as chaotic as Hawkman's.


Tony

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Hal Shipman

Post by Daniel McEwen
I'm pretty happy with this. My guess is that Thom somehow survived
Zero Hour intact. He must have vanished before merging with his SW6
counterpart (who was, in fact, a blip from Zero Hour rather than one
of the actual SW6).

In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire Levitz-era Legion
is back in continuity (there are full-sized statues of them in the
Fortress spread]).

That's kind of interesting. Superman interacts with the preboot Legion,
Superboy interacts with the postboot Legion, and Supergirl interacts
with the current Legion. But all are in continuity.

[Carl Fink]

Post by Dan McEwen
That's kind of interesting. Superman interacts with the preboot Legion,
Superboy interacts with the postboot Legion, and Supergirl interacts
with the current Legion. But all are in continuity.

So you're implying there might be, I don't know, some sort of multiple
universe thing going on?

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Dan McEwen
That's kind of interesting. Superman interacts with the preboot Legion,
Superboy interacts with the postboot Legion, and Supergirl interacts
with the current Legion. But all are in continuity.

So you're implying there might be, I don't know, some sort of multiple
universe thing going on?

Multiple futures, at least.

[Tony]

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Carl Fink

That's kind of interesting. �Superman interacts with the preboot Legion,
Superboy interacts with the postboot Legion, and Supergirl interacts
with the current Legion. �But all are in continuity.

So you're implying there might be, I don't know, some sort of multiple
universe thing going on?

Multiple futures, at least.

--I've noticed a tendency among fans to equate multiple futures with
multiple universes. People were treating the various timelines shown
in Zero Hour that there was proof that a multiverse existed. This
tendency was only exacerbated by Geoff Johns in Infinite Crisis by
showing alternate futures belonging to parallel earths.
I never cared for, nor subscribed to that idea. As Crisis on Infinite
Earths explained--and I've held fast to--a parallel universe in the
DCU is one that vibrates at a different frequency from the mainline
DCU reality. From the end of COIE to _possibly_ issue 6 of IC, there
have been no parallel earths. Sure, there were possible future
timelines (as shown in, say Armageddon 2001) or divergent timelines
(such as shown in Zero Hour), but no parallel Earths. As seen in COIE
#11, you couldn't hop on a cosmic treadmill and venture to any of
these realities. They were accessible through the timestream.
As this topic has been of some interest to me lately, I've decided to
do a bit of research on it. In the world of science fiction, it seems
that divergent realities and parallel worlds are not quite the same
thing. Divergent realities form from a critical decision going a
different direction than what we're used to (say Hitler and the Nazi's
won WWII), while parallel worlds don't have a specific point of
divergence. They simply run somewhat concurrently with the
traditional reality. If those rules held true in the DCU, it would
seem that Earth 2 would be a parallel world, as there's no specific
point of divergence from Earth 1. The other Earth's would be
questionable. Lady Quarks world could have diverged from the
mainstream DCU, but we'd only know that if we were to travel back in
time and find the one significant occurance that branched if off from
the Earth 1 timeline. OTOH, Earth X would seem to be a divergent
reality, as the Nazi's won WWII, but we don't know if that's where the
divergence occured, or if events in that reality simply *never* ran
parallel to the main DCU's. Elseworlds are the clearest examples of
divergent timelines, as the entire point to them has always been "what
if this event occured differently".
There will probably never be a clear cut answer from DC wrt to this
topic, but given that it's been brought up (the secret of 52 requires
us to believe that there has been no multiverse since COIE, but for
that to be possible, how do you explain all the alternate realities
we've seen since then? If there are no parallel worlds, what are
they? One answer is that they're divergent timelines), I think it
makes sense for *someone* to attempt an answer.


Tony

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

The time: 14 Feb 2007. The place:
rec.arts.comics.dc.universe. The speaker: "Tony"

Post by Tony
--I've noticed a tendency among fans to equate multiple
futures with multiple universes. People were treating the
various timelines shown in Zero Hour that there was proof
that a multiverse existed. This tendency was only
exacerbated by Geoff Johns in Infinite Crisis by showing
alternate futures belonging to parallel earths. I never
cared for, nor subscribed to that idea. As Crisis on
Infinite Earths explained--and I've held fast to--a
parallel universe in the DCU is one that vibrates at a
different frequency from the mainline DCU reality. From
the end of COIE to _possibly_ issue 6 of IC, there have
been no parallel earths. Sure, there were possible future
timelines (as shown in, say Armageddon 2001) or divergent
timelines (such as shown in Zero Hour), but no parallel
Earths. As seen in COIE #11, you couldn't hop on a cosmic
treadmill and venture to any of these realities. They were
accessible through the timestream. As this topic has been
of some interest to me lately, I've decided to do a bit of
research on it. In the world of science fiction, it seems
that divergent realities and parallel worlds are not quite
the same thing. Divergent realities form from a critical
decision going a different direction than what we're used
to (say Hitler and the Nazi's won WWII), while parallel
worlds don't have a specific point of divergence. They
simply run somewhat concurrently with the traditional
reality.

I have to admit that I've never heard the term "divergent
reality" used regularly, and have always referred to such
things as parallel universes.

According to the Wikipedia entry on "parallel universe":
While the terms "parallel universe" and "alternate reality"
are generally synonymous and can be used interchangeably in
most cases, there is sometimes an additional connotation
implied with the term "alternate reality" that implies that
the reality is a variant of our own. The term "parallel
universe" is more general, without any connotations implying a
relationship (or lack thereof) with our own universe.

This seems to be saying that "alternate reality" comprises
both "What the Nazis won WWII" *and* Earth-1 -2 etc.,
with parallel universes comprising alternate realities and
also things like Elfland, Narnia, Hyperspace, etc.

It goes on to say: "The most common use of parallel universes
in science fiction, when the concept is central to the story,
is as a backdrop and/or consequence of time travel."

I agree there seems to be a difference in the DCU, but it
seems to be a specifically DCU thing and (let's be honest)
largely invented for the sake of maintaining there aren't
parallel universes post-Crisis, while using all the tropes
connected with them.

Post by Tony
If those rules held true in the DCU, it would
seem that Earth 2 would be a parallel world, as there's no
specific point of divergence from Earth 1. The other
Earth's would be questionable. Lady Quarks world could
have diverged from the mainstream DCU, but we'd only know
that if we were to travel back in time and find the one
significant occurance that branched if off from the Earth 1
timeline. OTOH, Earth X would seem to be a divergent
reality, as the Nazi's won WWII, but we don't know if
that's where the divergence occured, or if events in that
reality simply *never* ran parallel to the main DCU's.
Elseworlds are the clearest examples of divergent
timelines, as the entire point to them has always been
"what if this event occured differently".

I dunno. The divergance in, say, "Gotham By Gaslight" is "What
if Batman was around in the 1880s?" which seems pretty similar
to the difference between Earths 1 and 2.

[Glenn Simpson]

Post by Daibhid Ceanaideach
rec.arts.comics.dc.universe. The speaker: "Tony"

Post by Tony
--I've noticed a tendency among fans to equate multiple
futures with multiple universes. People were treating the
various timelines shown in Zero Hour that there was proof
that a multiverse existed. This tendency was only
exacerbated by Geoff Johns in Infinite Crisis by showing
alternate futures belonging to parallel earths. I never
cared for, nor subscribed to that idea. As Crisis on
Infinite Earths explained--and I've held fast to--a
parallel universe in the DCU is one that vibrates at a
different frequency from the mainline DCU reality. From
the end of COIE to _possibly_ issue 6 of IC, there have
been no parallel earths. Sure, there were possible future
timelines (as shown in, say Armageddon 2001) or divergent
timelines (such as shown in Zero Hour), but no parallel
Earths. As seen in COIE #11, you couldn't hop on a cosmic
treadmill and venture to any of these realities. They were
accessible through the timestream. As this topic has been
of some interest to me lately, I've decided to do a bit of
research on it. In the world of science fiction, it seems
that divergent realities and parallel worlds are not quite
the same thing. Divergent realities form from a critical
decision going a different direction than what we're used
to (say Hitler and the Nazi's won WWII), while parallel
worlds don't have a specific point of divergence. They
simply run somewhat concurrently with the traditional
reality.

I have to admit that I've never heard the term "divergent
reality" used regularly, and have always referred to such
things as parallel universes.
While the terms "parallel universe" and "alternate reality"
are generally synonymous and can be used interchangeably in
most cases, there is sometimes an additional connotation
implied with the term "alternate reality" that implies that
the reality is a variant of our own. The term "parallel
universe" is more general, without any connotations implying a
relationship (or lack thereof) with our own universe.
This seems to be saying that "alternate reality" comprises
both "What the Nazis won WWII" *and* Earth-1 -2 etc.,
with parallel universes comprising alternate realities and
also things like Elfland, Narnia, Hyperspace, etc.
It goes on to say: "The most common use of parallel universes
in science fiction, when the concept is central to the story,
is as a backdrop and/or consequence of time travel."
I agree there seems to be a difference in the DCU, but it
seems to be a specifically DCU thing and (let's be honest)
largely invented for the sake of maintaining there aren't
parallel universes post-Crisis, while using all the tropes
connected with them.

Post by Tony
If those rules held true in the DCU, it would
seem that Earth 2 would be a parallel world, as there's no
specific point of divergence from Earth 1. The other
Earth's would be questionable. Lady Quarks world could
have diverged from the mainstream DCU, but we'd only know
that if we were to travel back in time and find the one
significant occurance that branched if off from the Earth 1
timeline. OTOH, Earth X would seem to be a divergent
reality, as the Nazi's won WWII, but we don't know if
that's where the divergence occured, or if events in that
reality simply *never* ran parallel to the main DCU's.
Elseworlds are the clearest examples of divergent
timelines, as the entire point to them has always been
"what if this event occured differently".

I dunno. The divergance in, say, "Gotham By Gaslight" is "What
if Batman was around in the 1880s?" which seems pretty similar
to the difference between Earths 1 and 2.
--
Dave
Official Absentee of EU Skiffeysochttp://sesoc.eusa.ed.ac.uk/
"The only thing worse than being talked about
is having nothing to declare except my handbag."
-Oscar Wilde, according to Humphrey Lyttleton- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -

I think it comes down to "what did DC mean when they said the
Multiverse was gone, and what would they mean if they said it has come
back". As someone else said, theres "a multiverse" and "The
Multiverse". DC apparently intended to say that a particular set of
alternate realities/parallel universes/whatever were gone, the ones
that had been created by a particular circumstance (the whole Krona-
viewing-beginning-of-universe thing). I think the ability to travel
back and forth between them is also a key difference between what they
did away with and what remained.

DC has employed these common sci-fi terms, but they do have their own
particular definition within DC's cosmology.

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Tony
There will probably never be a clear cut answer from DC wrt to this
topic, but given that it's been brought up (the secret of 52 requires
us to believe that there has been no multiverse since COIE, but for
that to be possible, how do you explain all the alternate realities
we've seen since then? If there are no parallel worlds, what are
they? One answer is that they're divergent timelines), I think it
makes sense for *someone* to attempt an answer.

I think Marvel's idea is interesting. If you take it from the small to
the large, it even makes some sort of sense. We have planets around
solar systems which are parts of galaxies. The galaxies themselves are
part of a local cluster of galaxies. The galaxies are part of the
universe. The universe is part of the multiverse. The multiverse is a
part of an omniverse. That allows for the existence of multiple
multiverses and still leave intact the idea that other universes exist
when one multiverse has died.

[Mike Blake]

Post by Hal Shipman
In Action Comics this week, it looks like the entire
Levitz-era Legion is back in continuity (there are
full-sized statues of them in the Fortress spread]).

If there are statues of the Legion back in continuity, then perhaps we'll
see the return of my favorite old villain, the Composite Superman, if not in
the person of Joe Meach (I can't see how they could explain a low-wage
janitor in the Fortress).

[Daniel McEwen]

Post by Carl Fink
Note crosspost added.

The 'name of murder' Thom mentioned when his powers acted up --
was that the name of the bad guy Thom killed that originally got him
kicked out the Legion before they added the 'self-defense' loophole?
And Dreamy, as MissTerious, got him back in as SirPrize [Ah, the
good old days of stupid stories)

Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his original
Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he lost before
his second and never regained (until now). If he uses "electrical
vision" we'll be sure.

How so? Thom lost that well before he gained a beard.

[Carl Fink]

Post by Daniel McEwen

Post by Carl Fink
Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his original
Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he lost before
his second and never regained (until now). If he uses "electrical
vision" we'll be sure.

How so? Thom lost that well before he gained a beard.

I don't know how he got them back, but he's showing every sign of using
them.

I could be wrong--his apparent super-strength could be the new reversed
gravity power--but that's how it looks to me.

As for regaining his original powers, how about passing through a comet's
tail again?

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Carl Fink

Post by Daniel McEwen

Post by Carl Fink
Yes, that's the criminal he killed. And he seems to have his
original Superman-like powers from his first appearance, which he
lost before his second and never regained (until now). If he uses
"electrical vision" we'll be sure.

How so? Thom lost that well before he gained a beard.

I don't know how he got them back, but he's showing every sign of
using them.
I could be wrong--his apparent super-strength could be the new
reversed gravity power--but that's how it looks to me.
As for regaining his original powers, how about passing through a
comet's tail again?

On his way back through time? Could be. I'm interested to find out.