Continuity Question

[Kenneth M. Lin]

Did the LOSH that appeared in contemporary DC Universe come from alternate
earths' futures? Those legionnaires from arcs such as Lightning Saga and
current Action Comics don't look anything like their counterparts from the
current LOSH series.

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Kenneth M. Lin
Did the LOSH that appeared in contemporary DC Universe come from
alternate earths' futures? Those legionnaires from arcs such as
Lightning Saga and current Action Comics don't look anything like
their counterparts from the current LOSH series.

It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is the New
Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment and each has had
its own hero from the 21st Century visit it: Lightning Saga gets
Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot gets Supergirl. It's
anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion. Final Crisis will
probably change everything once more.

[Wayne Garmil]

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Kenneth M. Lin
Did the LOSH that appeared in contemporary DC Universe come from
alternate earths' futures? Those legionnaires from arcs such as
Lightning Saga and current Action Comics don't look anything like
their counterparts from the current LOSH series.

It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is the New
Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment and each has had
its own hero from the 21st Century visit it: Lightning Saga gets
Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot gets Supergirl. It's
anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion. Final Crisis will
probably change everything once more.

Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are from
(and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he "retired" prior to
COIE). Plus legionnaires from reboot were part of Final Night, and
Ferro from the 20th century went with the reboot legionnaires when
they returned to their own time. So I feel that gives reboot the
strongest claim to being the New Earth version of the Legion.

I think the Legion seen in Lightning Saga and currently in Action
Comic is the Earth-1 Legion, while Supergirl visited the Earth-2
Legion (since they never had Superboy as a member). However, the
monkey wrench is this theory is that New Earth Superman remembers
being a legionnaire. So unless New Earth Superman crossed universes
when he traveled through time to the 30th century, we have two Legions
both with a claim to being the New Earth Legion.

And now that I think about it, the alternate could be true as well:
the reboot Legion's timeline is the one from a different Earth's
future, and they were the ones who crossed over to/from New Earth
modern day. At least having the multiverse back makes this possible,
we just need to identify which Earth each Legion is from and keep it
consistent that way.

[Michael S. Schiffer]

Post by Wayne Garmil
...

Post by Dan McEwen
It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is
the New Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment
Lightning Saga gets Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot
gets Supergirl. It's anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion.
Final Crisis will probably change everything once more.

Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are
from (and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he
"retired" prior to COIE).

Barry Allen retired all over the place:

Iris Allen's original 30th century, not terribly compatible with the
Legion's. (ISTR major shortages and everyone living in sealed
arcology-type buildings.)

The v.4 Legion future. (I don't recall if we saw the Tornado Twins
referred to prior to the Mordruverse issue, but they were definitely
killed in the Dominator occupation afterwards. Dominator
experimentation was, IIRC, the original cause of Bart's condition.)

The postboot future (which introduced XS).

One begins to imagine poor Barry waking up to a different history
each day of the month or so he spent in the 30th century. No wonder
he ran so readily towards his doom. :-)

Mike

[badbad]

Post by Michael S. Schiffer

Post by Wayne Garmil
...

Post by Dan McEwen
It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is
the New Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment
Lightning Saga gets Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot
gets Supergirl. It's anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion.
Final Crisis will probably change everything once more.

Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are
from (and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he
"retired" prior to COIE).

Iris Allen's original 30th century, not terribly compatible with the
Legion's. (ISTR major shortages and everyone living in sealed
arcology-type buildings.)
The v.4 Legion future. (I don't recall if we saw the Tornado Twins
referred to prior to the Mordruverse issue, but they were definitely
killed in the Dominator occupation afterwards. Dominator
experimentation was, IIRC, the original cause of Bart's condition.)
The postboot future (which introduced XS).
One begins to imagine poor Barry waking up to a different history
each day of the month or so he spent in the 30th century. No wonder
he ran so readily towards his doom. :-)
Mike

Can these editors/writers make a big tree diagram or something? the v4
Legion, the New Earth Legion - I really can't keep track of it
anymore. If they are forcing some kind of nomenclature can they say
something like, "the LSH with the transgender Shvaughn Erin," or the
2007 LSH with Supergirl." The LSH and X-Men are totally turning my head
around so much I can't tell if the stories occur in the same universe
anymore.


\
badbad

[Dan McEwen]

Post by badbad
Can these editors/writers make a big tree diagram or something? the
v4 Legion, the New Earth Legion - I really can't keep track of it
anymore. If they are forcing some kind of nomenclature can they say
something like, "the LSH with the transgender Shvaughn Erin," or the
2007 LSH with Supergirl." The LSH and X-Men are totally turning my
head around so much I can't tell if the stories occur in the same
universe anymore.

They're not forcing nomenclature of any sort. That's been left to the
readers. Personally, I separate them by which Kryptonian visited them.

[Oruncrest]

Post by Michael S. Schiffer

Post by Wayne Garmil
...

Post by Dan McEwen
It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is
the New Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment
Lightning Saga gets Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot
gets Supergirl. It's anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion.
Final Crisis will probably change everything once more.

Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are
from (and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he
"retired" prior to COIE).

Iris Allen's original 30th century, not terribly compatible with the
Legion's. (ISTR major shortages and everyone living in sealed
arcology-type buildings.)
The v.4 Legion future. (I don't recall if we saw the Tornado Twins
referred to prior to the Mordruverse issue, but they were definitely
killed in the Dominator occupation afterwards. Dominator
experimentation was, IIRC, the original cause of Bart's condition.)

Yes, The Tornado Twins were around before the 'Glorithverse'. Before v4,
they were unspecified decendents of Barry Allen who underwent some kind
of treatment to give them temporary superspeed powers so they could drum
up publicity for a new Flash Museum.

It was in v4 that the Twins were revealed to be Barry's children after
they were killed by the Dominator-controlled EarthGov simply to twist
Iris Allen's knickers, Don was the father of Barry Allen II (who was
never mentioned to have superpowers), not Bart. The Dominators aquired
the Twin's potentially Metagenetic (this was before the Speed Force)
cell samples after they were killed, modified them, and grafted them
onto an unknown woman (who would later be known as Rush), giving her
superspeed powers.

PostBoot, Mark Waid's writing both FLASH & both LEGION books and ties
Barry's legacy together as tight as he can: Don & Dawn are both tied to
the Speed Force now, although the LSH won't be around for another
generation (PreBoot, the Twins were contemporaries of the Legion). At
first, the Twins were killed by the Dominators (this was remarked in the
Legion books), but Iris and Jenni's father were able to hide Bart &
Jenni (although the Dominators caught up with Jenni later and awoke her
Speed Force link). Bart's Speed Force Link awoke almoke as soon as he
was out of the womb, thus requiring him to be taught via videogame. I
don't recall any mention of Rush, so she was probably swept away during
Zero Hour.

I don't think that there's been any mention of the Allen clan in the
WKRP Legion, but I lost intrest after #3. Can anybody out there help a
reader?

[Michael S. Schiffer]

Post by Oruncrest
...

Post by Michael S. Schiffer
The v.4 Legion future. (I don't recall if we saw the Tornado
Twins referred to prior to the Mordruverse issue, but they were
definitely killed in the Dominator occupation afterwards.
Dominator experimentation was, IIRC, the original cause of
Bart's condition.)

Yes, The Tornado Twins were around before the 'Glorithverse'.
Before v4, they were unspecified decendents of Barry Allen who
underwent some kind of treatment to give them temporary
superspeed powers so they could drum up publicity for a new
Flash Museum.

Of course. I was unclear-- I meant "were they referred to during
the handful of v4 issues before the Mordruverse interlude?" such
that we could say that Barry Allen definitely retired (among other
timelines) to the post-Crisis 30th century with a Legion that had
the Pocket Universe Superboy as a major member. (As opposed to the
post-Mordruverse universe, where Valor filled that role and
Superboy was first nonexistent and then a minor, temporary member--
we know Barry was in that history since the TT were shown.)

Post by Oruncrest
It was in v4 that the Twins were revealed to be Barry's children
after they were killed by the Dominator-controlled EarthGov
simply to twist Iris Allen's knickers, Don was the father of
Barry Allen II (who was never mentioned to have superpowers),
not Bart. The Dominators aquired the Twin's potentially
Metagenetic (this was before the Speed Force) cell samples after
they were killed, modified them, and grafted them onto an
unknown woman (who would later be known as Rush), giving her
superspeed powers.

IIRC, Bart appeared before Zero Hour, with a history initially
fitted to the v4 incarnation of the Legion-- that's presumably why
the Dominators were still involved postboot, even though it was
somewhat forced. (The dates of his first appearance appear to be a
few months before End of an Era and Zero Hour.) He was, of course,
quickly adapted to the postboot Legion and his newly-invented
cousin Jenni.

Post by Oruncrest
PostBoot, Mark Waid's writing both FLASH & both LEGION books and
ties Barry's legacy together as tight as he can: Don & Dawn are
both tied to the Speed Force now, although the LSH won't be
around for another generation (PreBoot, the Twins were
contemporaries of the Legion). At first, the Twins were killed
by the Dominators (this was remarked in the Legion books), but
Iris and Jenni's father were able to hide Bart & Jenni (although
the Dominators caught up with Jenni later and awoke her Speed
Force link). Bart's Speed Force Link awoke almoke as soon as he
was out of the womb, thus requiring him to be taught via
videogame. I don't recall any mention of Rush, so she was
probably swept away during Zero Hour.
I don't think that there's been any mention of the Allen clan in
the WKRP Legion, but I lost intrest after #3. Can anybody out
there help a reader?

Not that I recall, but I could easily be forgetting something.

Mike

[Duggy]

Post by Michael S. Schiffer
IIRC, Bart appeared before Zero Hour,

Issue #91, with #94 being the Zero Hour tie-in, and I think there was,
with all the timeline anomolies going around the question asked
whether they were one... since Mark would have known about Zero Hour
before #91 came around I'd say that there was no specific ties to the
old continuity, rather Mark was already thinking in terms of post-Zero
Hour continuity, since as has already been said, he'd have been
working on LSH by this time, too.

===
= DUG.
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[John]

"Oruncrest" <***@abseellsouth.net> wrote in message news:***@216.77.188.18...
snip

Post by Oruncrest
Jenni (although the Dominators caught up with Jenni later and awoke her
Speed Force link). Bart's Speed Force Link awoke almoke as soon as he
was out of the womb, thus requiring him to be taught via videogame.

One thing that never made sense about that scenario was that there's no
reason why a videogame needs to be consequenceless, *especially* the special
one they put Bart Allen in to teach and socialise him. In fact, wouldn't a
virtual Matrix-type world be just what the doctor ordered?

[Duggy]

Post by John
One thing that never made sense about that scenario was that there's no
reason why a videogame needs to be consequenceless, *especially* the special
one they put Bart Allen in to teach and socialise him. In fact, wouldn't a
virtual Matrix-type world be just what the doctor ordered?

They weren't trying to teach and socialise him.

They were trying to test and analysis him.

See what his limits were, test his reactions, see if there were
physical links the the Speed Force that the could replicate and make
an army of Speedsters...

It was evil government testing that Iris saved him from, not benign
teaching.

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Duggy

Post by John
One thing that never made sense about that scenario was that there's no
reason why a videogame needs to be consequenceless, *especially* the special
one they put Bart Allen in to teach and socialise him. In fact, wouldn't a
virtual Matrix-type world be just what the doctor ordered?

They weren't trying to teach and socialise him.
They were trying to test and analysis him.
See what his limits were, test his reactions, see if there were
physical links the the Speed Force that the could replicate and make
an army of Speedsters...
It was evil government testing that Iris saved him from, not benign
teaching.

Hmm. I thought I'd seen in latter issues of FLASH, IMPULSE, or YOUNG
JUSTICE, that Bart's video existence /was/ a kind of therapy, y'know,
to stop him from blowing up or something. If so, it seems that /is/ a
retcon.

[Duggy]

Post by Robert Carnegie
Hmm. I thought I'd seen in latter issues of FLASH, IMPULSE, or YOUNG
JUSTICE, that Bart's video existence /was/ a kind of therapy, y'know,
to stop him from blowing up or something. If so, it seems that /is/ a
retcon.

That is possible, I don't recall it in YJ, but I stopped reading
Impulse around the time Max left and The Flash during GJ's run... so
anything could happened there.

Then again my memory could be wrong, but I was sure, at the time, that
Iris said she'd saved Impulse from evil govt testing.

===
= DUG.
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[Dan McEwen]

Post by Wayne Garmil

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Kenneth M. Lin
Did the LOSH that appeared in contemporary DC Universe come from
alternate earths' futures? Those legionnaires from arcs such as
Lightning Saga and current Action Comics don't look anything like
their counterparts from the current LOSH series.

It's up for debate. Mark Waid said that the current Legion is the New
Earth Legion. We know of three Legions at the moment and each has had
its own hero from the 21st Century visit it: Lightning Saga gets
Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot gets Supergirl. It's
anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion. Final Crisis will
probably change everything once more.

Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are from
(and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he "retired" prior to
COIE). Plus legionnaires from reboot were part of Final Night, and
Ferro from the 20th century went with the reboot legionnaires when
they returned to their own time. So I feel that gives reboot the
strongest claim to being the New Earth version of the Legion.

I don't think it tells us much of anything. Members of the original
Legion are currently running around in the 21st Century (Karate Kid,
Una/Duo-Damsel and Star Boy/Starman). What does that prove?

Post by Wayne Garmil
I think the Legion seen in Lightning Saga and currently in Action
Comic is the Earth-1 Legion, while Supergirl visited the Earth-2
Legion (since they never had Superboy as a member). However, the
monkey wrench is this theory is that New Earth Superman remembers
being a legionnaire. So unless New Earth Superman crossed universes
when he traveled through time to the 30th century, we have two Legions
both with a claim to being the New Earth Legion.

Either two of the Kryptonians crossed universes or the future isn't set.

Post by Wayne Garmil
the reboot Legion's timeline is the one from a different Earth's
future, and they were the ones who crossed over to/from New Earth
modern day. At least having the multiverse back makes this possible,
we just need to identify which Earth each Legion is from and keep it
consistent that way.

I'm not too worried about it since it doesn't seem to effect the stories
in any meaningful way.

[Duggy]

Post by Wayne Garmil
Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are from
(and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he "retired" prior to
COIE).

Has that been specifically referenced since Infinite Crisis, after
all, if Superman could have been active as a child and Wonder Woman
was around an extra 5 years, there's no reason that Iris, Barry and
Bart couldn't have come from just the current future, either before
the LSH started, in an unseen side story during the current series or
to occur in the future.

Post by Wayne Garmil
Plus legionnaires from reboot were part of Final Night, and
Ferro from the 20th century went with the reboot legionnaires when
they returned to their own time.

That was prior to Infinite Crisis and thus not nec. in New Earth's
continuity... at least not nec. as we saw it.

Post by Wayne Garmil
I think the Legion seen in Lightning Saga and currently in Action
Comic is the Earth-1 Legion, while Supergirl visited the Earth-2
Legion (since they never had Superboy as a member).

The only thing I know for sure is that the current series was created
by Superboy's Reality Punches.

===
= DUG.
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[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Duggy

Post by Wayne Garmil
Reboot is also the timeline that Iris West and Bart Allen are from
(and the timeline that Barry Allen moved to when he "retired" prior to
COIE).

Has that been specifically referenced since Infinite Crisis, after
all, if Superman could have been active as a child and Wonder Woman
was around an extra 5 years, there's no reason that Iris, Barry and
Bart couldn't have come from just the current future, either before
the LSH started, in an unseen side story during the current series or
to occur in the future.

I'm a relatively new reader - did the current series introduce the
"public service" that monitors every non-adult being in the galaxy?
Starts with a baby alarm, presumably... Either way, that ought to be
present in any retcon of Bart's story... which I didn't see done,
however. Anyway, he /did/ grow up in a monitored, virtual reality
environment.

Incidentally, apart from Bart's case, what does the future do about
schooling? Did none of this Legion aspire to go to college? I have
the same problem here as with Harry Potter's wizard school - they
don't seem to learn any of the sensible subjects that we have in
ordinary schools. Maybe that's why most of the adult wizards are such
twits and a couple of part normally educated kids run rings around
them.

So... now I'm imagining a Legion spin-off series about a hilarious
gang of idiots attending the _Science Police Academy_. It would
explain so much. Heroes are rated by the stature of their
antagonists...

Post by Duggy

Post by Wayne Garmil
Plus legionnaires from reboot were part of Final Night, and
Ferro from the 20th century went with the reboot legionnaires when
they returned to their own time.

That was prior to Infinite Crisis and thus not nec. in New Earth's
continuity... at least not nec. as we saw it.

Post by Wayne Garmil
I think the Legion seen in Lightning Saga and currently in Action
Comic is the Earth-1 Legion, while Supergirl visited the Earth-2
Legion (since they never had Superboy as a member).

The only thing I know for sure is that the current series was created
by Superboy's Reality Punches.

I thought these kids weren't old enough to drink.

Are the kids from the previous series (in fact all the previous
series) still lost out there, and do they have an Earth to go home to?

[Duggy]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm a relatively new reader - did the current series introduce the
"public service" that monitors every non-adult being in the galaxy?

As fair as I know, yes.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Starts with a baby alarm, presumably... Either way, that ought to be
present in any retcon of Bart's story... which I didn't see done,
however. Anyway, he /did/ grow up in a monitored, virtual reality
environment.

Exactly. That makes no change at all, and "we didn't see it" doesn't
mean it doesn't happen.

Any Bart retcon we didn't see.

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Duggy
The only thing I know for sure is that the current series was created
by Superboy's Reality Punches.

I thought these kids weren't old enough to drink.

1. Punch can be either alcoholic or non-alcoholic. And kids are
generally old enough to drink before they eat, so...
2. This is the future when current local drinking laws may not apply.
3. The local drinking laws go as young as 5 in the UK to as high as
21 in the US. Most fall in the 15 - 18 range.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Are the kids from the previous series (in fact all the previous
series) still lost out there, and do they have an Earth to go home to?

Those Legionaire who were lost in time because of the reality punch
appear on Earth-(Issue of Adventure they first appeared in) during
Infinite Crisis with dialogue to suggest that, yes, it was them.
However, that universe hasn't appeared since.

===
= DUG.
===

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Robert Carnegie
I'm a relatively new reader - did the current series introduce the
"public service" that monitors every non-adult being in the galaxy?
Starts with a baby alarm, presumably...

It's new with this series.

Either way, that ought to be

Post by Robert Carnegie
present in any retcon of Bart's story... which I didn't see done,
however. Anyway, he /did/ grow up in a monitored, virtual reality
environment.

There's no retcon. Bart's future still exists; it just might not be the
future of New Earth.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Incidentally, apart from Bart's case, what does the future do about
schooling? Did none of this Legion aspire to go to college? I have
the same problem here as with Harry Potter's wizard school - they
don't seem to learn any of the sensible subjects that we have in
ordinary schools. Maybe that's why most of the adult wizards are such
twits and a couple of part normally educated kids run rings around
them.

Maybe education is different in ways that people from the 21st century
can't begin to understand.

Post by Robert Carnegie
Are the kids from the previous series (in fact all the previous
series) still lost out there, and do they have an Earth to go home to?

There's supposed to be a story in the near future involving three
different Legions.

[Duggy]

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Robert Carnegie
present in any retcon of Bart's story... which I didn't see done,
however. Anyway, he /did/ grow up in a monitored, virtual reality
environment.

There's no retcon. Bart's future still exists; it just might not be the
future of New Earth.

I know pre-Infinite Crisis that immunity to changes in the time stream
was one of his powers, but is there any indication that that still
holds? And is a change to the timestream via timetravel (the sort of
thing that happens in Booster Gold) really the same as a rewriting of
reality (via a reality punch or Crisis)

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Robert Carnegie
Are the kids from the previous series (in fact all the previous
series) still lost out there, and do they have an Earth to go home to?

There's supposed to be a story in the near future involving three
different Legions.

There is? This would be the Legion of Three Worlds story from
Superman's past right?

Stupid name for an adventure with three Legions each from a hundred
worlds.

===
= DUG.
===

[Robert Carnegie]

Did the LOSH  that appeared in contemporary DC Universe come from
alternate earths' futures?  Those legionnaires from arcs such as
Lightning Saga and current Action Comics don't look anything like
their counterparts from the current LOSH series.

It's up for debate.  Mark Waid said that the current Legion is the New
Earth Legion.  We know of three Legions at the moment and each has had
its own hero from the 21st Century visit it: Lightning Saga gets
Superman, reboot gets Superboy and threeboot gets Supergirl.  It's
anyone's guess which is the "real" Legion.  Final Crisis will
probably change everything once more.

Plus of course _The Brave and the Bold_ just had Batman visit the
current-title Legion and get them all killed... but only because he
hadn't yet summoned the Challengers of the Unknown to 21st century
Rann. When he did that, apparently the Legion was restored and forgot
all about him (? - that would serve them right, they keep doing it to
20th/21st century heroes).

Or was that an imaginary story?

For sure someone is messing with us readers. Even in these cynical
times, you need a positive reason to publish a story that uses
character versions that contradict other titles. Of course pre-Crisis
characters have been re-used just that way ever since they were
deleted, to say "we're doing something significant that says that what
you know is wrong" - certainly if you start with Superboy's Legion
membership (pocket Kal-El). And... characters fighting to save or
restore their deleted universe has been done in the comics, too.
Blink and you'd miss the Tangent characters... So maybe we're seeing
that - again?