Discussion:
Q: What was your *least* favorite Legion story?
(too old to reply)
OM
2008-07-13 13:53:42 UTC
Permalink
...Ok, let's look at the other end of the spectrum What, in your
opinion, was your least favorite Legion story you've ever read? Before
you answer, I'll make two quick points:

1) "least favorite" does not necessarily equal "worst". Some serial or
sequential works have particular segments that, while not of poor
quality, arguably do not measure up against the other segments. The
best example I can give right off the top of my head were two episodes
of Tom Hanks' excellent "From The Earth To The Moon" miniseries for
HBO. The Apollo 13 episode did a very different take on that mission
by showing just how news coverage of the mishap and the efforts to get
the crew back safely was arguably the turning point where broadcast
journalism embraced sensationalism over journalistic integrity and
professionalism, while the episode regarding the ordeals and stresses
the wives of the Astronauts provided a *very* accurate(*) look at the
toll the Space Race took upon the families. In both cases, however,
despite the accuracy of the subject matter, the very nature of the
subject matter also triggered a bit of negative reaction; the story of
how hype journalism triumphed over professionalism hit far too many
raw nerves with many viewers, especially those who were alive when the
events actually occurred. The "Astronaut Wives Club" episode, despite
its accuracy, also had the tendency to come across as the "June
Cleaver On The Rag" episode, and even devout feminists commented that
the tone that director Sally Field tried to set was unnecessarily
overexaggerated.

...Still, both episodes were very good when appreciated when looked at
on an individual level. It's only when compared to the other episodes
in the series that they appear to be inferior. By that same token,
there are clearly a few Legion stories that suffer the same quality
issues, and not all of them were written by Gerry Conway, or drawn by
John Forte or Ol' Scratchy.

2) The "Dr. Mayavale" story is automatically exempt from this non-poll
simply because that's just too damn easy a target. If a poll were
taken as to who the worst Nazi was, you'd have to add "besides Hitler"
in order to actually get some sort of diversity of opinion. The Legion
has five decades of history behind it, and this is a good opportunity
for us to see just how into that history we are, as well as giving
each other some idea of where our tastes lie.

OM

(*) With one exception: Pat White, wife of Ed White, was portrayed in
a quite negative light intended to bias the viewer into believing her
death through an accidental overdose was in fact a suicide brought on
by depression over the death of her husband in the Apollo 1 fire. Most
space historians, as well as those who knew Pat personally, felt that
this was unacceptably inaccurate, and essentially smeared Pat's memory
in the same way Tom Wolfe did to Gus Grissom over the loss of Liberty
Bell 7.

OM
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YKW (ad hoc)
2008-07-13 20:05:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
2) The "Dr. Mayavale" story is automatically exempt from this non-poll
simply because that's just too damn easy a target. If a poll were
taken as to who the worst Nazi was, you'd have to add "besides Hitler"
in order to actually get some sort of diversity of opinion. The Legion
has five decades of history behind it, and this is a good opportunity
for us to see just how into that history we are, as well as giving
each other some idea of where our tastes lie.
Hmmm... that line about Hitler reminded me of a particular nadir for the
early Legion: ADVENTURE #314, “The Super-Villains of all Ages!” Hitler,
Nero and Dillinger try to conquer the 30th Century using... let us say,
for the sake of those not yet familiar with the tale, some familiar
tools.

"Of course it worked! Hurry, dumbkoff, and transform the others!" There
are fewer more bizarre talking-head panels than that. If Forte had
included the 'stache, this might be one of the medium's worst stories
=ever=.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
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|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
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- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>
Ken Arromdee
2008-07-14 18:30:20 UTC
Permalink
What's a "story"?

In particular, do modern comics with continuously running soap opera type
storylines even have individual stories?

I'm thinking V4 here, of course. I could name annoying moments, but none of
them would be a story, just a bad moment in an overly rambling narrative,
unless you want to call all of V4 a single story.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"In a superhero story, Superman jumps off buildings and flies. In a realistic
story, Superman doesn't jump off buildings and can't fly. Deconstruction is
writing a story where Superman can't fly but he still jumps off of buildings."
Nick Eden
2008-07-16 07:15:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
What's a "story"?
In particular, do modern comics with continuously running soap opera type
storylines even have individual stories?
I'm thinking V4 here, of course. I could name annoying moments, but none of
them would be a story, just a bad moment in an overly rambling narrative,
unless you want to call all of V4 a single story.
If picking an individual story, then the one that revealed Shevaugh
was a deceitful tranny. Just pointless character f***ing.

But there was that soul killing V4 point when one realised that no,
TMK weren't planning on EVER resolving their dangling plot hints. That
they didn't have any idea what to do with these characters beyond a
bunch of cute pitch ideas. That there never would be any pay off. That
was worse, but I don't think we could pin that down to an issue.
OM
2008-07-17 02:29:41 UTC
Permalink
On Wed, 16 Jul 2008 08:15:47 +0100, Nick Eden
Post by Nick Eden
If picking an individual story, then the one that revealed Shevaugh
was a deceitful tranny. Just pointless character f***ing.
...This was but one of the Bierbaum's attempts to pull "Mary Sue"
stunts with the Legion that were based on their APA works prior to
somehow getting the writing gig with Giffen supervising. IIRC, this
was based on one throwaway comment someone made about Jan Arrah being
the most likely candidate for being the token gay Legionnaire, and
became such an in-joke amongst the APA - APA-247 or APA-LSH? It was
whichever one Todd Schoonover wasn't the central mailer for back in
the late 80's - early 90's - that when the Bierbaums got the gig one
of the first things they planned out was to have one issue where Jan
got outed. It took them a while to finally pull it off, and in the end
they had to change things so that it was Shvaughn - a supporting and
therefore sacrificial character - who was retconned into being not
only gay, but transgendered in such a way that rec.arts.comics.* was
barfing for months in between cries for the Bierbaum's heads. Even the
more outspoken gay and lesbian posters thought the whole profem/promen
idea was both absurd and insulting.

...There were a lot of other "in-jokes" the Bierbaums dumped into
their run. "SW6" was supposed to be a mailing address of some sort,
and "Venado Bay" was the street that one of the APA members lived on.
IIRC, the Invisible Kid II/Infectious Lass romance came from a fanfic
one of their members wrote, and quite a few of the names of bit part
characters and one-shot locations were phonetic twists on the names
and addresses of many APA members. Not something new - Flynt Brojj =
Harry Brojertes, for example - but no other writer ever took it to the
blatant extremes the Bierbaums did.
Post by Nick Eden
But there was that soul killing V4 point when one realised that no,
TMK weren't planning on EVER resolving their dangling plot hints. That
they didn't have any idea what to do with these characters beyond a
bunch of cute pitch ideas. That there never would be any pay off. That
was worse, but I don't think we could pin that down to an issue.
...Correct, which is the point Ken was making. The whole run could be
considered one big story, which was arguably the nadir of the Legion's
existence with quite a few of the "Action" 8-pagers not far behind.
The Bierbaum's disasterous run - despite a rather decent attempt to
fix the damage caused by Byrne's "No Superboy" edict - wound up pretty
much nixing the chance of any real LSH fan to ever get the writing gig
on the book or the team. Anyone taking over the book once Shooter
*finally* gets run off for good again(*) will have to have a proven
track record in writing comics and - with the sole exception of Geoff
Johns - also keep any serious Legion fandom ties to themselves.
Post-Bierbaum, having an APA membership is pretty much the same as an
automatic rejection letter for any Legion pitch.

Which is why, for personal reasons, I hope Tom & Mary Bierbaum wind up
spending the rest of their lives living as worthless inbred scum in
the most dilapidated trailer park this country has to offer, because
that's what they tried to turn the 30th Century into...:-(

(*) Rich Johnston claims Shooter's walkout was only a minor hissy-fit,
and he's back indefinitely with nobody really knowing any better
because, unlike a *LOT* of hotshot writers these days, he had several
months of scripts in the can already. If the rumors are correct, he's
lost only two or three months having been either six or eight ahead
with another two reportedly in the approval process.
OM
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] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
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Yeechang Lee
2008-07-17 07:05:02 UTC
Permalink
Not something new - Flynt Brojj = Harry Brojertes, for example - but
no other writer ever took it to the blatant extremes the Bierbaums
did.
In-jokes, like anything else, can be taken way too far. Paul Levitz's
total tenure as writer was twice that of TMK, but only one in-joke of
his readily comes to mind; naming GiGi Cusimano after his wife. He
could easily have named characters after his kids, his relatives, his
friends, his neighbors, and so on, and given his day job at DC during
the second run no one would have gainsaid him. He knew better, though.
The Bierbaum's disasterous run - despite a rather decent attempt to
fix the damage caused by Byrne's "No Superboy" edict
The only two things I like from the TMK run are the elegant Andromeda
substitution for Supergirl and the new costumes for batch SW6 which
the first Waid reboot used. (Actually, were TMK still on the book when
the new costumes/_Legionnaires_ debuted? I guess not.)
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
OM
2008-07-18 01:24:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yeechang Lee
The only two things I like from the TMK run are the elegant Andromeda
substitution for Supergirl and the new costumes for batch SW6 which
the first Waid reboot used. (Actually, were TMK still on the book when
the new costumes/_Legionnaires_ debuted? I guess not.)
...Andromeda was essentially a cross between a Supergirl done right
and Power Girl with a minor breast reduction. Which is why the
character worked quite well, and is arguably the only contribution the
Bierbaums made that was worth keeping around. In fact, were I writing
the Legion, the current Anorexic Lass...er..."Supergirl" wouldn't even
know there was a Legion, while Andromeda would be a featured
Legionnaire.

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
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Ken Arromdee
2008-07-18 03:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
Post by Nick Eden
If picking an individual story, then the one that revealed Shevaugh
was a deceitful tranny. Just pointless character f***ing.
...This was but one of the Bierbaum's attempts to pull "Mary Sue"
stunts with the Legion that were based on their APA works prior to
somehow getting the writing gig with Giffen supervising. IIRC, this
was based on one throwaway comment someone made about Jan Arrah being
the most likely candidate for being the token gay Legionnaire,
Oh, it gets better than that.

It started with a letter Jim Shooter wrote to Mike Flynn in 1975, while he
was on his 1970's Legion run.

The letter had his characterizations of Legion members and was endlessly
copied and retyped among fandom (I got one from Klordny in the 1990's).
It's full of references to the Legionnaires' sex lives. In it he does
indeed say that Element Lad might be gay. He also says that Saturn Girl
"is a wild, wild, woman in bed, who undoubtedly has accompanied Lightning
Lad on his forays into Dream Girl's boudoir."

Needless to say, while the Element Lad reference has spread through fandom,
everyone's ignored this part....

I'd post the whole thing, except this means I need to type in six pages
of text. (Volunteers anyone?)
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"In a superhero story, Superman jumps off buildings and flies. In a realistic
story, Superman doesn't jump off buildings and can't fly. Deconstruction is
writing a story where Superman can't fly but he still jumps off of buildings."
Kiwi
2008-07-18 17:04:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by OM
Post by Nick Eden
If picking an individual story, then the one that revealed Shevaugh
was a deceitful tranny. Just pointless character f***ing.
...This was but one of the Bierbaum's attempts to pull "Mary Sue"
stunts with the Legion that were based on their APA works prior to
somehow getting the writing gig with Giffen supervising. IIRC, this
was based on one throwaway comment someone made about Jan Arrah being
the most likely candidate for being the token gay Legionnaire,
Oh, it gets better than that.
It started with a letter Jim Shooter wrote to Mike Flynn in 1975, while he
was on his 1970's Legion run.
The letter had his characterizations of Legion members and was endlessly
copied and retyped among fandom (I got one from Klordny in the 1990's).
It's full of references to the Legionnaires' sex lives. In it he does
indeed say that Element Lad might be gay. He also says that Saturn Girl
"is a wild, wild, woman in bed, who undoubtedly has accompanied Lightning
Lad on his forays into Dream Girl's boudoir."
Needless to say, while the Element Lad reference has spread through fandom,
everyone's ignored this part....
I'd post the whole thing, except this means I need to type in six pages
of text. (Volunteers anyone?)
Not me.
However, people can read both Jim Shooter's original 'character
studies' and the Bierbaum's update to them in 2000 at the following
page
http://members.aol.com/interlac/legionnaires.html

Kiwi
--
Remove .NZ from address to reply
YKW (ad hoc)
2008-07-18 22:04:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
Post by OM
Post by Nick Eden
If picking an individual story, then the one that revealed Shevaugh
was a deceitful tranny. Just pointless character f***ing.
...This was but one of the Bierbaum's attempts to pull "Mary Sue"
stunts with the Legion that were based on their APA works prior to
somehow getting the writing gig with Giffen supervising. IIRC, this
was based on one throwaway comment someone made about Jan Arrah being
the most likely candidate for being the token gay Legionnaire,
Oh, it gets better than that.
It started with a letter Jim Shooter wrote to Mike Flynn in 1975,
while he was on his 1970's Legion run.
The letter had his characterizations of Legion members and was
endlessly copied and retyped among fandom (I got one from Klordny in
the 1990's). It's full of references to the Legionnaires' sex lives.
In it he does indeed say that Element Lad might be gay. He also says
that Saturn Girl "is a wild, wild, woman in bed, who undoubtedly has
accompanied Lightning Lad on his forays into Dream Girl's boudoir."
Interesting. At least part of this has finally made it on-panel in in
Shooter's current run. Can't wait to see how he finishes it off, what
with Dreamy in her current state and all...
Post by Ken Arromdee
Needless to say, while the Element Lad reference has spread through
fandom, everyone's ignored this part....
I'd post the whole thing, except this means I need to type in six
pages of text. (Volunteers anyone?)
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim
Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."
- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>
OM
2008-07-21 07:26:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by YKW (ad hoc)
Interesting. At least part of this has finally made it on-panel in in
Shooter's current run. Can't wait to see how he finishes it off, what
with Dreamy in her current state and all...
...Actually, after having read Shooter's comments to Flynn, I can't
help but wonder as to how much of that was just Shooter joking around,
and how much of that joking was taken out of context.

OM
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OM
2008-07-19 08:27:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
the Invisible Kid II/Infectious Lass romance came from a fanfic
...And, IIRC, Infectious Lass' homeworld was a reversed combination of
the first and last name of one of the APA-LSH members. Not sure tho if
that showed up during the TMK run or during her first appearance at
the tryouts.

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
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Yeechang Lee
2008-07-17 07:08:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Nick Eden
But there was that soul killing V4 point when one realised that no,
TMK weren't planning on EVER resolving their dangling plot
hints. That they didn't have any idea what to do with these
characters beyond a bunch of cute pitch ideas. That there never
would be any pay off. That was worse, but I don't think we could pin
that down to an issue.
The consensus seems to be that the majority of reader sentiment turned
against the TMK run after the first year or so. (For me it was
sooner.)
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
OM
2008-07-18 01:25:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yeechang Lee
The consensus seems to be that the majority of reader sentiment turned
against the TMK run after the first year or so. (For me it was
sooner.)
...For me it was the first issue. Even Giffen's Munoz swiping
cluttered that nine-grid paneling he preferred too much, and his abuse
of an industrial-sized Sharpie for inking only made it worse.

OM
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OM
2008-07-17 01:21:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ken Arromdee
What's a "story"?
...Damn. That's a clarification I should have made, Ken. While one
could consider the entire Bierbaum Debacle as one big arc - albeit
with more dangling plotlines than "Lost" could ever hope to obtain
even if it ran as long as "Gunsmoke" - you can still take those
"mega-arcs" and break them down into smaller, sub-arcs. At the same
time, we had Legion stories so short they only took 8 pages at best!
So, with that in mind, while I was originally expecting stories
appearing in only one issue, once can easily argue a 2-4 issue arc(*)
as a single "story". I only suggest that you justify the story as a
whole as being as bad as you claim it was.

(*) First example that comes to mind was some of the initial denoument
towards that last "Universo" arc where Dreamy and Atmos were a forced
item. Not the best Universo storyline, but not as bad as some claimed
at the time.
OM
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] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
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Yeechang Lee
2008-07-17 06:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
(*) First example that comes to mind was some of the initial
denoument towards that last "Universo" arc where Dreamy and Atmos
were a forced item. Not the best Universo storyline, but not as bad
as some claimed at the time.
I hadn't realized there had been much contemporary net.comics (just
before The Great Renaming) resistance to the Universo Project
storyline; certainly in the more than a decade I've been online I can
never recall seeing *any* dislike for the storyline, even if not
everyone agrees with my pick of it as the best Legion story arc of all
time.[1] Or are we talking the offline fanzines circa 1987?

[1] Yes, better than Earthwar or the Great Darkness Saga.
--
<URL:http://www.pobox.com/~ylee/> PERTH ----> *
OM
2008-07-18 01:20:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yeechang Lee
I hadn't realized there had been much contemporary net.comics (just
before The Great Renaming) resistance to the Universo Project
storyline; certainly in the more than a decade I've been online I can
never recall seeing *any* dislike for the storyline,
...AWK! Sorry, memory fails in old age. WWIVNet was where most of the
complaints were voiced. Mea culprit.

OM
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] OMBlog - http://www.io.com/~o_m/omworld [
] Let's face it: Sometimes you *need* [
] an obnoxious opinion in your day! [
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Sean MacDonald
2008-07-18 17:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by OM
...Ok, let's look at the other end of the spectrum What, in your
opinion, was your least favorite Legion story you've ever read?
Pre-Zero Hour, I'd have to say the tail end of the Adult Legion stuff,
where they knew the book would be taking a new direction soon, so they
didn't bother to try to write anything interesting. In particular, the
"Legion on the Run" storyline, in which the Legionnaires were aged in
random different ways and took on new names and codenames, making them
feel like totally different (uninteresting) characters. And Brainiac 5
was old and bald and fat. Yuck!

Post Zero-Hour, I'd have to say the Legion Worlds story that focused
on Tasmia Mallor. In the actual Archie Legion comics themselves, up to
that point she had seemed like the *only* likeable character to me,
the only one who wasn't constantly acting like a silly parody of a
real Legionnaire. And then she got made stoooooopid.
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