Superboy Prime vs the LSH

[Rob Jensen]

On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl. Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno. Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it). Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice). Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime. Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.

There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.

-- Rob

[David Goldfarb]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.

They might be able to kill him, but they would certainly break a sweat
doing so. (I'm suddenly flashing on a bit from the Iliad I read recently
where Zeus got Poseidon to stop helping out the Greeks....)

Post by Rob Jensen
Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).

...Oh. *That's* why Element Lad is MIA. Any bets that the other
two Legions will have their Jans unavailable for some reason also?

(Didn't the reboot Jan get killed off in _Legion Lost_?)

[Rob Hansen]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 07:35:04 +0000 (UTC), ***@OCF.Berkeley.EDU
(David Goldfarb) wrote:

<snip>

So David, it's been obvious from the time the title was first
announced - Legion of 3 Worlds - that each Legion was going to become
the future of a particular one of the 52 Earths rather than just
alternate futures of New Earth, as we might otherwise have expected
what with the current Supergirl having been a memder of the threeboot
LSH and Connor Kent of the DnA LSH. This being so, has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)? Since Didio recently said they'll be using the
series to assess which version is most popular with the readership I'm
assuming that one will become the version attached to New Earth (my
money's on the recently reborn original LSH). With a version of
Earth-2 having also been introduced, I'm guessing one will be attached
to that world, but which? And what Earth should they attach the
remaing Legion to?
--
Rob Hansen
www.fiawol.demon.co.uk

[Keith Lee]

All:
I hope it is the LSH I grew up with. I am sooo glad to see that they
grew older and some married. Change isn't always a bad thing; and in this
case, it is a blessing.

Keith

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Keith Lee
I hope it is the LSH I grew up with. I am sooo glad to see that they
grew older and some married. Change isn't always a bad thing; and in this
case, it is a blessing.
Keith

Keith,

A helpful suggestion: when someone replies to a message, it's assumed
it's for "all," but it's still nice to quote at least the pertinent
points of the message to which you're responding. That helps people who
may have read the first bits of this thread one day, then your message
another, know what "it" (in the first sentence) is.

[Bob Hughes]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:55:31 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen
<snip>
So David, it's been obvious from the time the title was first
announced - Legion of 3 Worlds - that each Legion was going to become
the future of a particular one of the 52 Earths rather than just
alternate futures of New Earth, as we might otherwise have expected
what with the current Supergirl having been a memder of the threeboot
LSH and Connor Kent of the DnA LSH. This being so, has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)? Since Didio recently said they'll be using the
series to assess which version is most popular with the readership I'm
assuming that one will become the version attached to New Earth (my
money's on the recently reborn original LSH). With a version of
Earth-2 having also been introduced, I'm guessing one will be attached
to that world, but which? And what Earth should they attach the
remaing Legion to?

I don't find this obvious at all. Nor do I find the idea that the
multiverse will continue to exist after the Final Crisis obvious. Why
don't we just read the story and find out?

Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive. Which
ever Legions don't get annointed the true Legion of New Earth will
almost certainly never be seen again.

I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

[Rob Hansen]

Post by Bob Hughes
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:55:31 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen
<snip>
So David, it's been obvious from the time the title was first
announced - Legion of 3 Worlds - that each Legion was going to become
the future of a particular one of the 52 Earths rather than just
alternate futures of New Earth, as we might otherwise have expected
what with the current Supergirl having been a memder of the threeboot
LSH and Connor Kent of the DnA LSH. This being so, has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)? Since Didio recently said they'll be using the
series to assess which version is most popular with the readership I'm
assuming that one will become the version attached to New Earth (my
money's on the recently reborn original LSH). With a version of
Earth-2 having also been introduced, I'm guessing one will be attached
to that world, but which? And what Earth should they attach the
remaing Legion to?

I don't find this obvious at all.

So you don't find that "three worlds" part of the title to be even the
teeniest weeniest bit suggestive?

Post by Bob Hughes
Nor do I find the idea that the
multiverse will continue to exist after the Final Crisis obvious.

Well, it would be pretty pointless to have gone to the trouble of
bringing it back only to then do away with it again a couple of years
later.

Post by Bob Hughes
Why don't we just read the story and find out?

Yes, sir!

Post by Bob Hughes
Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive.

This is true. Having gone to the trouble of setting up the 52 I
couldn't believe how they were then falling over themselves to quickly
use them up with a lot of ill-thought out, disposable ideas. I assumed
this was going to be a resource they would use a bit more sparingly
and thoughtfully. Anyone kept track of how many they've used up so
far, incidentally?

Post by Bob Hughes
Which
ever Legions don't get annointed the true Legion of New Earth will
almost certainly never be seen again.

Probably, yes.

Post by Bob Hughes
I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

Well, me, too, but then they're the Legion I grew up with. I seem to
recall Johns saying this is the LSH after the Baxter series and,
clearly, the 5 years after stuff hasn't happened to them (and
probably never will). Which is not to say that other stuff hasn't
happened to get them to the point where they're the group we've seen
in recent years, including ressurrections.

--
Rob Hansen
www.fiawol.demon.co.uk

[Rob Jensen]

On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:34:41 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive.

This is true. Having gone to the trouble of setting up the 52 I
couldn't believe how they were then falling over themselves to quickly
use them up with a lot of ill-thought out, disposable ideas. I assumed
this was going to be a resource they would use a bit more sparingly
and thoughtfully. Anyone kept track of how many they've used up so
far, incidentally?

I think it's a moot point. By the end of Final Crisis, we're either
going to have a reboot of the entire line from Day One/reset of the
entire line to first issues or the entire DC Multiverse is going to be
restored. More likely the latter than the former. I don't see how
they can stick with just the 52 system since, as you note, they're
making the glitches even worse, not better.

-- Rob

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:34:41 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive.

This is true. Having gone to the trouble of setting up the 52 I
couldn't believe how they were then falling over themselves to quickly
use them up with a lot of ill-thought out, disposable ideas. I assumed
this was going to be a resource they would use a bit more sparingly
and thoughtfully. Anyone kept track of how many they've used up so
far, incidentally?

I think it's a moot point. By the end of Final Crisis, we're either
going to have a reboot of the entire line from Day One/reset of the
entire line to first issues or the entire DC Multiverse is going to be
restored. More likely the latter than the former. I don't see how
they can stick with just the 52 system since, as you note, they're
making the glitches even worse, not better.
-- Rob

The problem isn't with the 52 limit, it's with the editorial inability
to keep any of them straight.

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:34:41 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive.

This is true. Having gone to the trouble of setting up the 52 I
couldn't believe how they were then falling over themselves to quickly
use them up with a lot of ill-thought out, disposable ideas. I assumed
this was going to be a resource they would use a bit more sparingly
and thoughtfully. Anyone kept track of how many they've used up so
far, incidentally?

I think it's a moot point. By the end of Final Crisis, we're either
going to have a reboot of the entire line from Day One/reset of the
entire line to first issues or the entire DC Multiverse is going to be
restored. More likely the latter than the former. I don't see how
they can stick with just the 52 system since, as you note, they're
making the glitches even worse, not better.
-- Rob

The problem isn't with the 52 limit, it's with the editorial inability
to keep any of them straight.

Well, yeah, that too. I suspect that Johns is going to do what
Morrison and/or Berganza are too afraid to do and write a real bible
of the post-Final Crisis DC Multiverse. Either that, or some smart
assistant editor is just going to ask him for a copy of his notes. ;)

-- Rob

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:34:41 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
Beyond that, all of the new multiverse Earths are pretty boring and I
doubt will receive much exposure should the multiverse survive.

This is true. Having gone to the trouble of setting up the 52 I
couldn't believe how they were then falling over themselves to quickly
use them up with a lot of ill-thought out, disposable ideas. I assumed
this was going to be a resource they would use a bit more sparingly
and thoughtfully. Anyone kept track of how many they've used up so
far, incidentally?

I think it's a moot point. By the end of Final Crisis, we're either
going to have a reboot of the entire line from Day One/reset of the
entire line to first issues or the entire DC Multiverse is going to be
restored. More likely the latter than the former. I don't see how
they can stick with just the 52 system since, as you note, they're
making the glitches even worse, not better.
-- Rob

The problem isn't with the 52 limit, it's with the editorial inability
to keep any of them straight.

Well, yeah, that too. I suspect that Johns is going to do what
Morrison and/or Berganza are too afraid to do and write a real bible
of the post-Final Crisis DC Multiverse. Either that, or some smart
assistant editor is just going to ask him for a copy of his notes. ;)
-- Rob

And then the rest of the DC office will do what most people do with
"the" Bible: ignore it.

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
Well, yeah, that too. I suspect that Johns is going to do what
Morrison and/or Berganza are too afraid to do and write a real bible
of the post-Final Crisis DC Multiverse. Either that, or some smart
assistant editor is just going to ask him for a copy of his notes. ;)
-- Rob

And then the rest of the DC office will do what most people do with
"the" Bible: ignore it.

Well, yeah, but that's why Berganza and Carlin need to not be editors
anymore.

-- Rob

[OM]

Post by Rob Jensen
Well, yeah, but that's why Berganza and Carlin need to not be editors
anymore.

...Carlin deserved to be tossed the *second* time this exchange
occurred:

"What's _______ about?"

"It's about 32 pages long."

...Of course, that was nothing compared to what Weezie Simonson pulled
on a convention panel. Every single question about what was upcoming
in her books was answered with "That would be telling." By the end of
the panel, there were about two hundred irate fans ready to take
Weezie out and string her up from a tree.


OM

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:55:31 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen
<snip>
So David, it's been obvious from the time the title was first
announced - Legion of 3 Worlds - that each Legion was going to become
the future of a particular one of the 52 Earths rather than just
alternate futures of New Earth, as we might otherwise have expected
what with the current Supergirl having been a memder of the threeboot
LSH and Connor Kent of the DnA LSH. This being so, has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)? Since Didio recently said they'll be using the
series to assess which version is most popular with the readership I'm
assuming that one will become the version attached to New Earth (my
money's on the recently reborn original LSH). With a version of
Earth-2 having also been introduced, I'm guessing one will be attached
to that world, but which? And what Earth should they attach the
remaing Legion to?

I don't find this obvious at all.

So you don't find that "three worlds" part of the title to be even the
teeniest weeniest bit suggestive?

Post by Bob Hughes
Nor do I find the idea that the
multiverse will continue to exist after the Final Crisis obvious.

Well, it would be pretty pointless to have gone to the trouble of
bringing it back only to then do away with it again a couple of years
later.

Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

I'm not saying that FC *is* living up to its name (Final *or* Crisis),
but...

[grinningdemon]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Hansen

Post by Bob Hughes
On Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:55:31 +0100, Rob Hansen

Post by Rob Hansen
<snip>
So David, it's been obvious from the time the title was first
announced - Legion of 3 Worlds - that each Legion was going to become
the future of a particular one of the 52 Earths rather than just
alternate futures of New Earth, as we might otherwise have expected
what with the current Supergirl having been a memder of the threeboot
LSH and Connor Kent of the DnA LSH. This being so, has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)? Since Didio recently said they'll be using the
series to assess which version is most popular with the readership I'm
assuming that one will become the version attached to New Earth (my
money's on the recently reborn original LSH). With a version of
Earth-2 having also been introduced, I'm guessing one will be attached
to that world, but which? And what Earth should they attach the
remaing Legion to?

I don't find this obvious at all.

So you don't find that "three worlds" part of the title to be even the
teeniest weeniest bit suggestive?

Post by Bob Hughes
Nor do I find the idea that the
multiverse will continue to exist after the Final Crisis obvious.

Well, it would be pretty pointless to have gone to the trouble of
bringing it back only to then do away with it again a couple of years
later.

Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Post by Joe Sewell
I'm not saying that FC *is* living up to its name (Final *or* Crisis),
but...

With you on that one.

[Joe Sewell]

[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
I'm not saying that FC *is* living up to its name (Final *or* Crisis),
but...

With you on that one.

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Do you believe that beyond a salmon of a doubt?

-- Rob -- couldn't resist

[Lilith]

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Frankly, saying it's the final crisis can be overridden by the fact
that when Final Crisis resets things it may mean that the first two
Crises never happened.

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Lilith

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Frankly, saying it's the final crisis can be overridden by the fact
that when Final Crisis resets things it may mean that the first two
Crises never happened.

It's one big shagadelic Crisis! Yeah, baby, yeah!

-- Rob

[Lilith]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Lilith

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Frankly, saying it's the final crisis can be overridden by the fact
that when Final Crisis resets things it may mean that the first two
Crises never happened.

It's one big shagadelic Crisis! Yeah, baby, yeah!
-- Rob

Oh, Be-have!

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Lilith

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Frankly, saying it's the final crisis can be overridden by the fact
that when Final Crisis resets things it may mean that the first two
Crises never happened.

At least until Final Crisis of the Infinite Morrisons, where the reset
button is reset so that everybody remembers FC and wonders, "what the
heck is going on here?"

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Lilith

Post by Joe Sewell
[snip]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Joe Sewell
Well, if Final Crisis were to live up to its name, it would have to be a
multiversal event.

Not necessarily true...Identity CRISIS had nothing to do with the
multiverse...FC doesn't necessarily have to either...I really hope
not...I'm so sick of the endless continuity revisions (and they still
haven't really explaned all the fallout from the last change after
Infinite Crisis).

Hmmm ... Okay, you've got me on that one, even though FC is billed as
the final part of the "Crisis trilogy." (And let's not start a pool on
how many Crises will actually be in the "trilogy," though I suspect more
than the number of books in the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"trilogy.")

Frankly, saying it's the final crisis can be overridden by the fact
that when Final Crisis resets things it may mean that the first two
Crises never happened.

At least until Final Crisis of the Infinite Morrisons, where the reset
button is reset so that everybody remembers FC and wonders, "what the
heck is going on here?"
--
Once he was a simple Continuity Janitor, working for the Legion of Wanking
Fanboys. Then a bolt of British arrogance strikes!
Ordinary Joe is transformed into ... THE ANTI-MORRISON!

Why in the hell would you want to be MIke Carlin?

-- Rob

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Bob Hughes
I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.

So technically speaking, he could have written Legion of Four Worlds
-- Action/"Original" Legion, DnA Legion, Waid/Kitson Legion and TMK
Legion -- if he wanted to really freak Perez out. Legion of Five
Worlds if he wanted to include the animated version. Legion of Six
Worlds if he wanted to differentiate between the pre-Crisis and
post-Crisis variants of the Original Legion. Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their first
appearances in comics [FootNOTE A]:

Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]

Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)

Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion

Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE C]

Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)

Legion 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion

Legion 4.0 -- Animated Series


Footnotes:

NOTE A: *Except* for Johns Legion, which is in chronological order
relative to *only* Legion 1.0 and its other variants.

NOTE B: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.

NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.

-- Rob

[Bob Hughes]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Bob Hughes
I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.
So technically speaking, he could have written Legion of Four Worlds
-- Action/"Original" Legion, DnA Legion, Waid/Kitson Legion and TMK
Legion -- if he wanted to really freak Perez out. Legion of Five
Worlds if he wanted to include the animated version. Legion of Six
Worlds if he wanted to differentiate between the pre-Crisis and
post-Crisis variants of the Original Legion. Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their first
Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]
Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE C]
Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
Legion 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
Legion 4.0 -- Animated Series
NOTE A: *Except* for Johns Legion, which is in chronological order
relative to *only* Legion 1.0 and its other variants.
NOTE B: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.
NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.
-- Rob

I don't understand a single word of this message. What's a TMK
legion? What's a DNA Legion? (Mind you, I've read all of these- I
just can't be bothered to learn the jargon.)

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Bob Hughes

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Bob Hughes
I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.
So technically speaking, he could have written Legion of Four Worlds
-- Action/"Original" Legion, DnA Legion, Waid/Kitson Legion and TMK
Legion -- if he wanted to really freak Perez out. Legion of Five
Worlds if he wanted to include the animated version. Legion of Six
Worlds if he wanted to differentiate between the pre-Crisis and
post-Crisis variants of the Original Legion. Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their first
Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]
Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE C]
Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
Legion 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
Legion 4.0 -- Animated Series
NOTE A: *Except* for Johns Legion, which is in chronological order
relative to *only* Legion 1.0 and its other variants.
NOTE B: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.
NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.
-- Rob

I don't understand a single word of this message. What's a TMK
legion? What's a DNA Legion? (Mind you, I've read all of these- I
just can't be bothered to learn the jargon.)

TMK Legion (1.1.1) = "Five Years Later" Legion, written by Tom & Mary
Bierbaum and co-plotted & pencilled by Keith Giffen. T for Tom, M for
Mary, K for Keith. The TMK Legion is much-hated amongst the more
militant circles within Legion fandom because it takes *extensive*
liberties with the entire premise. I've always loved it (not as much
as I love LSH 1.0/1.1, though) and consider it a great 39-issue
Elseworlds story.

DnA Legion (2.0) = post-Zero Hour reboot. Retroactively known as DnA
Legion after the two writers who wrote the best-received part of this
run. (roughly the entire second half). D for Dan (Abnett), n for
"and", A for Andy Lanning.

I find that the DnA Legion was mostly well-received. It seems to me
that most Legion fans liked the DnA version of LSH although some fans
were greatly upset by the occasional plot point that they think took
the series too far away from the 1.0/1.1 versions, such as killing off
Leviathan (its version of Colossal Boy) early on and having Element
Lad go crazy (to say the least) toward the end of the run. Oh, and
having Phantom Girl be half-Carggite -- meaning she also had
Triad/Triplicate Girl's powers -- which was done primarily to answer
the open question of why/how Phantom Girl was a member of L.E.G.I.O.N.
in the "present day" of the late 20th/early 21st century.

L.E.G.I.O.N. = present-day semi-mercenary competitor to the Green
Lantern Corps. Led by Brainy's ancestor Querl Dox (the first humanoid
Brainiac in post-Crisis continuity). Has included a time-tossed
Carggite iteration of Phantom Girl (called Phase here) and an ancestor
of the legionnaire Blok. L.E.G.I.O.N. has significant ties into the
Legion 2.0 continuity -- Querl Dox had long been considered to be the
first Brainiac, the inclusion of Phase, Blok's ancestor. But it
remains to be seen how Geoff Johns' new version of Brainiac in Action
Comics impacts L.E.G.I.O.N. and/or the Legion 2.0 timeline.

Obviously, I did not include L.E.G.I.O.N. as an iteration of LSH in my
list above due to the timeline confusion involved, but I would be
inclined to classify it as either Legion 0.5 or as a footnote for
Legion 2.0 identifying L.E.G.I.O.N. as part of the Legion 2.0 history.
Hopefully, as Legion of Three Worlds progresses, L.E.G.I.O.N.'s role
will be clarified just as much as all of the other rampaging
continuity glitches running around the DCU/DCM.

-- Rob

[OM]

Post by Rob Jensen
The TMK Legion is much-hated amongst the more
militant circles within Legion fandom because it takes *extensive*
liberties with the entire premise.

...Actually, it's hated amongst most of the more mainstream Legion
fans. The only difference is that they're not as outspoken about it as
those of us who have no qualms about calling shit what it is. Brad
Templeton likes to throw about the synthetic term "fanwank", and if
anything best describes the Bierbaum's side of the input, it's that
term. Ever issue was practically a fucking love letter to themselves
and their Legion APA - can't remember if it was APA-LSH, Interlac or
APA-247 - and included at least four new plot holes and dangling plot
lines for ever one they botchingly managed to explain and patch over
with kono juice and turds from Brainy's monkey. They were like
children given keys to a candy store and instead of running the store
so all the other kids had a good time, they decided to gorge
themselves until their Type-2 Diabetes set in and the DKA and
resulting coma put the book and the readers to sleep.

...And if you think the "Shvaughn/Sean" bit was sick, they were headed
towards keeping the "Ayla/Vi" relationship going despite Ayla now
being older and Vi being reduced to ~12 years of age. Transgendered
homosexual relationships are easier to accept than childmolestation
and statutory rape.

...Does anyone know if the Bierbaums still do the APA games, or were
they finally evicted after ruining the Legion?

OM

[OM]

Post by Rob Jensen
I find that the DnA Legion was mostly well-received. It seems to me
that most Legion fans liked the DnA version of LSH although some fans
were greatly upset by the occasional plot point that they think took
the series too far away from the 1.0/1.1 versions

...The general consensus is that while the stories were good, with the
general ending being a bit on the wonky side. However, most poll
showed that 80 to 90% of readers gave varying degrees of thumbs down
toward Ol' Scratchy's piss-ppor excuse for art. Coipel's art at the
time was nothing but manga swipes combined with using dried fruit for
head shape models. To top all this off, he apparently used an old dead
toothbrush to ink his own art, which explains why the Legion looked
like they'd been drug through a cactus field after it had rained and
the cattle had been herded through said field. Ergo, for the entire
"Legion Lost" the team looked as if they'd been drug around, beaten
and scratched, and above all else covered in shit.

...On the other hand, there's no replacing Winslow Mortimer or john
Forte when it comes to lousy

OM

[Rob Jensen]

Post by OM

Post by Rob Jensen
I find that the DnA Legion was mostly well-received. It seems to me
that most Legion fans liked the DnA version of LSH although some fans
were greatly upset by the occasional plot point that they think took
the series too far away from the 1.0/1.1 versions

...The general consensus is that while the stories were good, with the
general ending being a bit on the wonky side. However, most poll
showed that 80 to 90% of readers gave varying degrees of thumbs down
toward Ol' Scratchy's piss-ppor excuse for art. Coipel's art at the
time was nothing but manga swipes combined with using dried fruit for
head shape models. To top all this off, he apparently used an old dead
toothbrush to ink his own art, which explains why the Legion looked
like they'd been drug through a cactus field after it had rained and
the cattle had been herded through said field. Ergo, for the entire
"Legion Lost" the team looked as if they'd been drug around, beaten
and scratched, and above all else covered in shit.
...On the other hand, there's no replacing Winslow Mortimer or john
Forte when it comes to lousy

Well, yeah -- I wish the Moys had stayed on the art, too, but I was
focusing on the writing.

-- Rob

[Joe Sewell]

[snip]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Bob Hughes
I don't understand a single word of this message. What's a TMK
legion? What's a DNA Legion? (Mind you, I've read all of these- I
just can't be bothered to learn the jargon.)

TMK Legion (1.1.1) = "Five Years Later" Legion, written by Tom & Mary
Bierbaum and co-plotted & pencilled by Keith Giffen. T for Tom, M for
Mary, K for Keith. The TMK Legion is much-hated amongst the more
militant circles within Legion fandom because it takes *extensive*
liberties with the entire premise. I've always loved it (not as much
as I love LSH 1.0/1.1, though) and consider it a great 39-issue
Elseworlds story.
DnA Legion (2.0) = post-Zero Hour reboot. Retroactively known as DnA
Legion after the two writers who wrote the best-received part of this
run. (roughly the entire second half). D for Dan (Abnett), n for
"and", A for Andy Lanning.

Thanks for the decoder ring, Rob. I've been with the Legion almost from
day 1, but I ignored creators (well, except for Giffen), so TMK & DnA
didn't mean much to me, either. Plus there were so many minor shifts in
the midst of the major reboots that I got lost in "reboot" vs.
"threeboot" lore.

Post by Rob Jensen
L.E.G.I.O.N. = present-day semi-mercenary competitor to the Green
Lantern Corps. Led by Brainy's ancestor Querl Dox (the first humanoid
Brainiac in post-Crisis continuity). Has included a time-tossed
Carggite iteration of Phantom Girl (called Phase here) and an ancestor
of the legionnaire Blok.

May I remind everyone here that L.E.G.I.O.N. existed pre-Crisis, or at
least before Zero Hour. Originally the mysterious Phase was hand-waved
away at the end of that title to be a cousin of Phantom Girl, both of
whom were somehow lost in a joy-riding incident. We (and Ultra Boy)
never found out what happened to Tinya before the reboot. (Personally I
prefer the Carggite story over the "identical cousin" shtick, though
other possibilities wre missed that would've helped.)

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by Joe Sewell
Originally the mysterious Phase was hand-waved
away at the end of that title to be a cousin of Phantom Girl, both of
whom were somehow lost in a joy-riding incident. We (and Ultra Boy)
never found out what happened to Tinya before the reboot.

I do believe we were eventually told that Rokk had spirited her away to
keep her safe from... something. Maybe Glorith's vengeance or whatever.
Anyway, he brought her out from behind the curtain (or "Curtain", I
s'pose) for the Obligatory Tearful Final Reuniting with Jo. Right before
they both went away in End Of An Era.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim
Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."
- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>

[Duggy]

DnA Legion (2.0) = post-Zero Hour reboot.  Retroactively known as DnA
Legion after the two writers who wrote the best-received part of this
run.  (roughly the entire second half).  D for Dan (Abnett), n for
"and", A for Andy Lanning.

DNA wrote 2000 - 2003, all but the last6 of the 38 issues of The
Legion, and some of the stuff before that, Legion Lost, etc.

The stuff before that was 1994 - 2000, around 60 issues of LSH and
around 60 of L*. Not to mention lots of spin-off material.

And they veered so dramatically from what came before that you can't
apply their names to the Waid/Peyer reboot and what preceed them...
and if you're spliting of Legions that another natural split.

L.E.G.I.O.N. has significant ties into the
Legion 2.0 continuity -- Querl Dox had long been considered to be the
first Brainiac,

I thought he was Brainiac 2...

===
= DUG.
===

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Duggy

DnA Legion (2.0) = post-Zero Hour reboot.  Retroactively known as
DnA Legion after the two writers who wrote the best-received part
of this run.  (roughly the entire second half).  D for Dan
(Abnett), n for "and", A for Andy Lanning.

DNA wrote 2000 - 2003, all but the last6 of the 38 issues of The
Legion, and some of the stuff before that, Legion Lost, etc.
The stuff before that was 1994 - 2000, around 60 issues of LSH and
around 60 of L*. Not to mention lots of spin-off material.
And they veered so dramatically from what came before that you
can't apply their names to the Waid/Peyer reboot and what preceed
them... and if you're spliting of Legions that another natural
split.

It's not, though. The tone was dramatically darker but it was a
perfect continuation. There was not even a hint of a reboot between
the writers.

Post by Duggy

L.E.G.I.O.N. has significant ties into the
Legion 2.0 continuity -- Querl Dox had long been considered to be
the first Brainiac,

I thought he was Brainiac 2...

Querl Dox has always been Brainiac 5 except when he was Brainiac
5.1. Vril Dox was Brainiac and Vril Dox II (from L.E.G.I.O.N.) is
something along the lines of Brainiac 3. Then Lyrl Dox - the son of
Vril II and Stealth - was something like Brainiac 4. Why it took a
thousand years for the fifth Brainiac to show up hasn't been
explained.

[Duggy]

It's not, though.  The tone was dramatically darker but it was a
perfect continuation.  There was not even a hint of a reboot between
the writers.

Yes, and the first DnA story and the prelude to Damned happened during
the run, but it's still a massive change in the team.

Post by Duggy

Post by Rob Jensen
L.E.G.I.O.N. has significant ties into the
Legion 2.0 continuity -- Querl Dox had long been considered to be
the first Brainiac,

I thought he was Brainiac 2...

Querl Dox has always been Brainiac 5 except when he was Brainiac
5.1. Vril Dox was Brainiac and Vril Dox II (from L.E.G.I.O.N.) is
something along the lines of Brainiac 3.  Then Lyrl Dox - the son of
Vril II and Stealth - was something like Brainiac 4.  Why it took a
thousand years for the fifth Brainiac to show up hasn't been
explained.

In the Reboot, didn't they say (or at least hint) that Brainiac's
mother was Brainiac 4... Blond woman who rejected him at birth and
dishonoured the Brainiac name? Or am I mis-remembering?

===
= DUG.
===

[OM]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:48:47 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy
In the Reboot, didn't they say (or at least hint) that Brainiac's
mother was Brainiac 4... Blond woman who rejected him at birth and
dishonoured the Brainiac name? Or am I mis-remembering?

...Nope, and it explained why he had a Kermit(*) for
Supergirl/Andromeda - he had a Oedipus complex for tall, powerful
blondes with long hair and ample chesticles.

(*) What else would you call a green-skinned erection?
OM

[Duggy]

Post by OM
(*) What else would you call a green-skinned erection?

Old Moldy.

===
= DUG.
===

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by Duggy

Post by OM
(*) What else would you call a green-skinned erection?

Old Moldy.
=== DUG.
==

"Brainiac 5.6".
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"It's not that I want to punish your success. [...]I think
when you spread the wealth around, it's good for everybody."

-- The One, 14 Oct 08

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Duggy

Post by Dan McEwen
Querl Dox has always been Brainiac 5 except when he was Brainiac
5.1. Vril Dox was Brainiac and Vril Dox II (from L.E.G.I.O.N.) is
something along the lines of Brainiac 3.  Then Lyrl Dox - the son
of Vril II and Stealth - was something like Brainiac 4.  Why it
took a thousand years for the fifth Brainiac to show up hasn't
been explained.

In the Reboot, didn't they say (or at least hint) that Brainiac's
mother was Brainiac 4... Blond woman who rejected him at birth and
dishonoured the Brainiac name? Or am I mis-remembering?

Yes, but I'm not sure how that ties in with Lyrl. I thought Lyrl Dox
was a male.

[Duggy]

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Duggy

Post by Dan McEwen
Querl Dox has always been Brainiac 5 except when he was Brainiac
5.1. Vril Dox was Brainiac and Vril Dox II (from L.E.G.I.O.N.) is
something along the lines of Brainiac 3.  Then Lyrl Dox - the son
of Vril II and Stealth - was something like Brainiac 4.  Why it
took a thousand years for the fifth Brainiac to show up hasn't
been explained.

In the Reboot, didn't they say (or at least hint) that Brainiac's
mother was Brainiac 4... Blond woman who rejected him at birth and
dishonoured the Brainiac name?  Or am I mis-remembering?

Yes, but I'm not sure how that ties in with Lyrl. I thought Lyrl Dox
was a male.

Well Reboot era, I thought it was:

Brainiac - Vril Dox.
Brainiac 2 - Vril Dox II
Brainiac 3 - Lyrl Dox

Brainiac 4 - Querl's mum.
Brainiac 5 - Qurel Dox.

===
= DUG.
===

[OM]

Post by Bob Hughes
I don't understand a single word of this message. What's a TMK
legion? What's a DNA Legion?

..."TMK" stands for "Tom Mary Keith", the first names of Tom & Mary
Bierbaum and Keith Giffen. Their run is known by their few fans as
"The Five Year Gap", while the vast majority of Legion fans who
utterly despised 90% of their run call it "The Five Year Crap" or "The
Bierbaum Debacle". Best known and reviled for being a multi-year love
letter to the Bierbaum's friends in their Legion APA - essentially a
bunch of fanfic writers who, because they actually xeroxed their work
and distributed it to their fellow fanfic writers through a "central
mailer", gave themselves the delusion of being professionals in the
comic book industry. - it turned Legion history into a convoluted mess
that *could* have been fixed had Mark Waid not been so damn lazy and
rebooted the mess to save time.

..."DNA" - or, more accurately, "DnA" - stands for "Dan 'n' Andy", or
Dan Abnett and Andy Lanning. These are the guys who did the "Legion
Lost" run that attempted to make the post-"Zero Hour" reboot legion -
AKA the "1st Waid Debacle" - into something more action-oriented with
a harder edge to it. They tried to be to the Gerry Conway half-assed
stories what the Levitz-Giffen run was, and they damn near succeeded.
The problem was that they were shackled with an artist whose talents
were so immature and unsuited for the Legion that it actually hurt
sales. Oliver "Ol' Scratchy" Coipel has since evolved into a damn good
artist, but if you look at his current work and compare it to what the
did on "Legion Lost" and the subsequent relaunch, the difference is
like night and day. Not only did he not have an understanding of how
the various team members heads' were supposed to be shaped - Cham
wound up with a goddamn *lemon* for a head, being the worst example! -
he attempted to combine manga stying with Marvel house style, and the
result was a Legion that looked as if they'd been drug through cactus
in the middle of a cow pasture after a rainstorm. It was a look only
the Sharpie company could love, because he used an industrial strength
marker to ink the pages, which *really* confused everyone because even
with all the heavy inks it was obvious he'd used a dead toothbrush to
draw the pages instead of a Koh-I-Noor like a real artist would.

Post by Bob Hughes
(Mind you, I've read all of these- I just can't be bothered to learn the jargon.)

...And that's the same slacker attitude that's led to the Legion being
the fucked-up, multi-rebooted morass it's been since "Zero Hour". if
you "can't be bothered", then that's *your* fault, not ours. It's like
history - if you "can't be bothered" to learn where you came from,
then you've less a right to complain when you find out where you're
going, much less change your destination. DC's problem all these years
is that they listened to the slackers and 5-year-old punks who whined
"Waaaah! I don't wanna havta read all those back issues!!!" at the
conventions and tried to make the book accessable to them. "No kid
left behind" only applies to school, not the Legion. Learn or burn,
bottom line!

OM

[OM]

Post by Rob Jensen
Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.

...As he should have done. The highly positive reception of the Johns'
version in "Action" should have been proof enough to DC that an
"unboot" is what's necessary here. Put everything back in place to
just before "The Magic Wars" and let the Bierbaum Debacle be as
forgotten and/or reviled as the Gospel of Judas.

OM

[Rob Jensen]

Post by OM

Post by Rob Jensen
Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.

...As he should have done. The highly positive reception of the Johns'
version in "Action" should have been proof enough to DC that an
"unboot" is what's necessary here. Put everything back in place to
just before "The Magic Wars" and let the Bierbaum Debacle be as
forgotten and/or reviled as the Gospel of Judas.

The major problem I have with Johns' "Action" Legion is that it
doesn't just ignore The Magic Wars, it retcons out of existence the
entire Baxter-series segment of Levitz's run on Legion (something like
half of his run), as, well, its Karate Kid was, like, you know, alive.

-- Rob

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by OM

Post by Rob Jensen
Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.

...As he should have done. The highly positive reception of the Johns'
version in "Action" should have been proof enough to DC that an
"unboot" is what's necessary here. Put everything back in place to
just before "The Magic Wars" and let the Bierbaum Debacle be as
forgotten and/or reviled as the Gospel of Judas.

The major problem I have with Johns' "Action" Legion is that it
doesn't just ignore The Magic Wars, it retcons out of existence the
entire Baxter-series segment of Levitz's run on Legion (something like
half of his run), as, well, its Karate Kid was, like, you know, alive.
-- Rob

There was a comment at one point (I think it was in the Lightning Saga)
that Val was back from the dead. And Jeckie is still, for reasons
unrevealed, Sensor Girl. So, clearly, at least some of the Baxter series
is still part of the Johns Legion backstory.

But the Earth is still in one piece, Rokk has his powers, and Brainy
isn't a gimp in a SLEEPER suit; just as clearly, 5YL is SOL.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
|| E-mail: ykw2006 ||"The mystery of government is not how Washington||
|| -at-gmail-dot-com ||works but how to make it stop." -- P.J. O'Rourke||
|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim
Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."
- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>

[OM]

Post by Rob Jensen
The major problem I have with Johns' "Action" Legion is that it
doesn't just ignore The Magic Wars, it retcons out of existence the
entire Baxter-series segment of Levitz's run on Legion (something like
half of his run), as, well, its Karate Kid was, like, you know, alive.

...Actually, I suspect Johns will eventually get around to explaining
how Val came back, and that the only thing we'll see retconned is
everything *after* the Magic Wars. Which means no Bierbaum Debacle,
and Coipel using "Legion Lost" to alienate more readers via crappy
art.

OM

[Tony]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Bob Hughes
I vote for the "original" Legion. ( Even though a lot of Legion fans
nit pick that it's not really the "original" Legion because so and so
should be dead or is wearing the wrong costume or isn't there who
should be and they can't figure out exactly which two issues this
takes place between.)

Speaking as a fan of the TMK Legion -- well, pretty much every
iteration of LSH except for the Waid/Kitson abomination, I have got to
say that I think it's clear that Geoff Johns has completely ignored
the TMK Legion with his iteration of the original Legion as
re-introduced during the recent arc in Action Comics.
So technically speaking, he could have written Legion of Four Worlds
-- Action/"Original" Legion, DnA Legion, Waid/Kitson Legion and TMK
Legion -- if he wanted to really freak Perez out. Legion of Five
Worlds if he wanted to include the animated version. Legion of Six
Worlds if he wanted to differentiate between the pre-Crisis and
post-Crisis variants of the Original Legion. Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their first
Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]
Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE C]
Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
Legion 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
Legion 4.0 -- Animated Series
NOTE A: *Except* for Johns Legion, which is in chronological order
relative to *only* Legion 1.0 and its other variants.
NOTE B: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.
NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.
-- Rob

On the subject of the animated Legion - what about the Legion depicted
in JLU? I don't believe it is the same as the one that had its own show.

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by Tony
On the subject of the animated Legion - what about the Legion depicted
in JLU? I don't believe it is the same as the one that had its own show.

The JLU Legion is the one from the S:TAS continuity. The Supergirl-meets-
the-LSH ep was a back-door pilot for an LSH successor series/companion to
JLU, but there was already an LSH pitch that Kids!WB liked, thanks to the
presence of Superboy/man as opposed to the S:TAS/JLU faux-Kara Supergirl.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
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|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim
Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."
- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>

[Rob Jensen]

Post by YKW (ad hoc)

Post by Tony
On the subject of the animated Legion - what about the Legion depicted
in JLU? I don't believe it is the same as the one that had its own show.

The JLU Legion is the one from the S:TAS continuity. The Supergirl-meets-
the-LSH ep was a back-door pilot for an LSH successor series/companion to
JLU, but there was already an LSH pitch that Kids!WB liked, thanks to the
presence of Superboy/man as opposed to the S:TAS/JLU faux-Kara Supergirl.

Agg! Never saw the S:TAS (and I'm still trying to fit B:TAS into my
budget somewhere), so I wasn't aware of the S:TAS Legion. So I guess
here goes:

=========================

THE UNOFFICIAL LEGION OF SUPER-VARIANTS LIST-FAQ-THINGIE

Presented in absolute chronological order versus their first
appearances in the comics *except* for the Johns Legion, which is
presented in Chronological order relative to *only* Legion 1.0

LEGION 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE A]

LEGION 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)

LEGION 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
[NOTE B]

LEGION 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE B]
[NOTE C]

LEGION 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
[NOTE D]

LEGION 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion

LEGION 4.0 -- Superman: The Animated Series
*** Newly! (Re-)-discovered! Variant!

LEGION 5.0 -- Legion: The Animated Series


Footnotes:

NOTE A: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.

NOTE B: Legion 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 are (at least at present) mutually
incompatible extensions of the Legion 1.1 timeline.

NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.

NOTE D:
1.) Phase from the modern-day-set L.E.G.I.O.N. series is the time-lost
third persona of the Legion 2.0's Apparition (Phantom Girl), who was
revealed to be half-Cargggite (her father was from Triad/Triplicate
Girl's planet).
2) Bart Allen aka Impulse and his cousin, the Legionnaire speedster
XS, are both from this timeline.


-- Rob

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by YKW (ad hoc)

Post by Tony
On the subject of the animated Legion - what about the Legion depicted
in JLU? I don't believe it is the same as the one that had its own show.

The JLU Legion is the one from the S:TAS continuity. The Supergirl-meets-
the-LSH ep was a back-door pilot for an LSH successor series/companion to
JLU, but there was already an LSH pitch that Kids!WB liked, thanks to the
presence of Superboy/man as opposed to the S:TAS/JLU faux-Kara Supergirl.

Agg! Never saw the S:TAS (and I'm still trying to fit B:TAS into my
budget somewhere), so I wasn't aware of the S:TAS Legion. So I guess
=========================
THE UNOFFICIAL LEGION OF SUPER-VARIANTS LIST-FAQ-THINGIE
Presented in absolute chronological order versus their first
appearances in the comics *except* for the Johns Legion, which is
presented in Chronological order relative to *only* Legion 1.0
LEGION 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE A]
LEGION 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
LEGION 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
[NOTE B]
LEGION 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE B]
[NOTE C]
LEGION 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
[NOTE D]
LEGION 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
LEGION 4.0 -- Superman: The Animated Series
*** Newly! (Re-)-discovered! Variant!
LEGION 5.0 -- Legion: The Animated Series
NOTE A: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.
NOTE B: Legion 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 are (at least at present) mutually
incompatible extensions of the Legion 1.1 timeline.
NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.
1.) Phase from the modern-day-set L.E.G.I.O.N. series is the time-lost
third persona of the Legion 2.0's Apparition (Phantom Girl), who was
revealed to be half-Cargggite (her father was from Triad/Triplicate
Girl's planet).
2) Bart Allen aka Impulse and his cousin, the Legionnaire speedster
XS, are both from this timeline.
-- Rob

Ummm, hate to tell you this, but what you labeled 4.0 here ran parallel
to 3.0 (and part of 2.0, if memory serves).

Might I suggest putting the animated versions into an appendix --
therefore, Legion A.0 and A.1? :)

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by YKW (ad hoc)

Post by Tony
On the subject of the animated Legion - what about the Legion depicted
in JLU? I don't believe it is the same as the one that had its own show.

The JLU Legion is the one from the S:TAS continuity. The Supergirl-meets-
the-LSH ep was a back-door pilot for an LSH successor series/companion to
JLU, but there was already an LSH pitch that Kids!WB liked, thanks to the
presence of Superboy/man as opposed to the S:TAS/JLU faux-Kara Supergirl.

Agg! Never saw the S:TAS (and I'm still trying to fit B:TAS into my
budget somewhere), so I wasn't aware of the S:TAS Legion. So I guess
=========================
THE UNOFFICIAL LEGION OF SUPER-VARIANTS LIST-FAQ-THINGIE
Presented in absolute chronological order versus their first
appearances in the comics *except* for the Johns Legion, which is
presented in Chronological order relative to *only* Legion 1.0
LEGION 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE A]
LEGION 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
LEGION 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
[NOTE B]
LEGION 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE B]
[NOTE C]
LEGION 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion (aka DnA Legion)
[NOTE D]
LEGION 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
LEGION 4.0 -- Superman: The Animated Series
*** Newly! (Re-)-discovered! Variant!
LEGION 5.0 -- Legion: The Animated Series
NOTE A: None of the numbers above correspond to any parallel Earth
under either the pre-Crisis or post-Infinite Crisis/52/Countdown
iterations. Those assignments have yet to be revealed, if it's even
going to go that way.
NOTE B: Legion 1.1.1 and 1.1.2 are (at least at present) mutually
incompatible extensions of the Legion 1.1 timeline.
NOTE C: Legion 1.1 and 1.1.2 are theoretically the same timeline now.
Even more theoretically, Legion 1.0, 1.1 and 1.1.2 are all the same
timeline now with all the Crisis/Zero Hour stuff either substantially
altered or conveniently ignored.
1.) Phase from the modern-day-set L.E.G.I.O.N. series is the time-lost
third persona of the Legion 2.0's Apparition (Phantom Girl), who was
revealed to be half-Cargggite (her father was from Triad/Triplicate
Girl's planet).
2) Bart Allen aka Impulse and his cousin, the Legionnaire speedster
XS, are both from this timeline.
-- Rob

Ummm, hate to tell you this, but what you labeled 4.0 here ran parallel
to 3.0 (and part of 2.0, if memory serves).
Might I suggest putting the animated versions into an appendix --
therefore, Legion A.0 and A.1? :)

I'm going to skip the appendix -- biology skips it, too, after all. So
I'm just gonig to rename them A.1 and A.2 and the upcoming Smallville
Legion as T.1

And I really, really *want* to put in the Earth-22 Legion somewhere in
there, but given both Lo3W and Superman-22's current appearances in
JSA, I think that assigning a spot to the Earth-22 Legion is
premature. I mean, we don't know for sure that it's its own alternate
Legion and NOT one of the three Legions in Lo3K yet.

Also, if i were inclined to go into my storage space, dig out LSH v1
#300 and check through it, I'd assign all of the alternate timelines
that Ferro Lad's brother is looking through to their own 1.0.x
numbers. But I'll leave that for a while.

I'm also considering changing the placement of Johns's Legion as it
seems to ignore the events of the Baxter series entirely, which means
that the Johns Legion branches off from 1.0 *before* COIE due to,
like, Karate Kid being alive specifically to get killed off at the end
of Countdown.

Oy, vey, this is going to take some more editing. Did I forget any
other significant Alternate Legions?

OH! The original Adult Legion story from oh, god, waaaay before I
started collecting Legion (and I started with v1 #265 or whichever
issue was part 1 of the Katuu genie storyline. Haven't pulled those
back issues out to read in at least a decade.)

-- Rob

[Duggy]

Post by Rob Jensen
2) Bart Allen aka Impulse and his cousin, the Legionnaire speedster
XS, are both from this timeline.

Bart is from whichever the current timeline is, really.

His father was from the Pre-Crisis timeline, he was from the Reboot
Timeline.

Although he has the power to exist outside timeline changes, I think
that changes to the universe occur around him.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

Post by Rob Jensen
So technically speaking, he could have written Legion of Four Worlds
-- Action/"Original" Legion, DnA Legion, Waid/Kitson Legion and TMK
Legion -- if he wanted to really freak Perez out.  Legion of Five
Worlds if he wanted to include the animated version.  Legion of Six
Worlds if he wanted to differentiate between the pre-Crisis and
post-Crisis variants of the Original Legion.

7. Earth-22 has Legion. Sure they appeared in a single panel of KC,
but they exist. There are some similarities to the Pre-DnA Reboot
Legion.

Loading Image...

Post by Rob Jensen
 Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their first
appearances in comics [FootNOTE A]:  
Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]
Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis timeline)
Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores TMK
[NOTE C]
Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion

I'd add:

Legion 2.0.1 -- The "Earth-2" Legion from Legionaires #54
Legion 2.0.2 -- Other legions from the follow up story.
Legion 2.2 -- DnA Legion.

Post by Rob Jensen
Legion 3.0 -- Waid/Kitson Legion
Legion 4.0 -- Animated Series

I'd also suggestion the Superboy's Legion Elseworlds as being viable.

===
= DUG.
===

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Duggy

Post by Rob Jensen
 Seven worlds if one were
to look at it in absolute chronological order according to their
first appearances in comics [FootNOTE A]:  
Legion 1.0 -- pre-Crisis Legion
[NOTE B]
Legion 1.1 -- post-Crisis Legion (with most of pre-Crisis
timeline) Legion 1.1.1 -- TMK Legion
Legion 1.1.2 -- Johns version of post-Crisis Legion that ignores
TMK [NOTE C]
Legion 2.0 -- post-Zero Hour Legion

Legion 2.0.1 -- The "Earth-2" Legion from Legionaires #54
Legion 2.0.2 -- Other legions from the follow up story.
Legion 2.2 -- DnA Legion.

DnA Legion is just a continuation of the 2.0 Legion. There was no
reboot of any sort so I don't think it qualifies as a 2.2.

[Duggy]

DnA Legion is just a continuation of the 2.0 Legion.  There was no
reboot of any sort so I don't think it qualifies as a 2.2.

It was a continuation, but also a complete change of direction... I
think the difference constitutes a separate team.

===
= DUG.
===

[David Goldfarb]

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

[OM]

Post by David Goldfarb
But I'm *not* doing it.

...And thanks to the Bierbaums, by the time fans like us get anywhere
near another chance at having a go at writing the Legion officially,
the "Great Darkness Saga" will be to their generation what "Space:
1999" is now to current history: speculative history instead of
science fiction.

OM

[Rob Jensen]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.

Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.

Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.

Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.

-- Rob

[grinningdemon]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.
Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.
Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.
Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.
-- Rob

Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.

My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.

As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...another
possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...as much as I hate to say it since this
is my favorite version of the Legion, I don't think it matters much
which earth they come from as we are unlikely to ever see them again
beyond this storyline...unless, of course, member(s) of this version
are incorporated into the others...it wouldn't surprise me at all if
the 3 Legions end up a little mixed & matched when all is said and
done...and probably some character death along the way too (it's
really all Prime is good for).

[Rob Jensen]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:22:19 GMT, grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.
Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.
Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.
Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.
-- Rob

Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...another
possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...as much as I hate to say it since this
is my favorite version of the Legion, I don't think it matters much
which earth they come from as we are unlikely to ever see them again
beyond this storyline...unless, of course, member(s) of this version
are incorporated into the others...it wouldn't surprise me at all if
the 3 Legions end up a little mixed & matched when all is said and
done...and probably some character death along the way too (it's
really all Prime is good for).

Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?

-- Rob -- adds, "I'm not even going to allow myself to think of
Legion v1 #300 for the near . . . err, future."

[grinningdemon]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:22:19 GMT, grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.
Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.
Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.
Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.
-- Rob

Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...another
possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...as much as I hate to say it since this
is my favorite version of the Legion, I don't think it matters much
which earth they come from as we are unlikely to ever see them again
beyond this storyline...unless, of course, member(s) of this version
are incorporated into the others...it wouldn't surprise me at all if
the 3 Legions end up a little mixed & matched when all is said and
done...and probably some character death along the way too (it's
really all Prime is good for).

Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?
-- Rob -- adds, "I'm not even going to allow myself to think of
Legion v1 #300 for the near . . . err, future."

That Val and Una were supposed to be from the Johns Legion (as Val was
the one who stayed behind at the end of the Lightning Saga) but, as
you say, Countdown was a mess and it doesn't really track with
anything else that's been going on so I'd say it could be retconned or
just ignored.

[Rob Jensen]

On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 06:21:17 GMT, grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Rob Jensen
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:22:19 GMT, grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.
Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.
Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.
Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.
-- Rob

Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...another
possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...as much as I hate to say it since this
is my favorite version of the Legion, I don't think it matters much
which earth they come from as we are unlikely to ever see them again
beyond this storyline...unless, of course, member(s) of this version
are incorporated into the others...it wouldn't surprise me at all if
the 3 Legions end up a little mixed & matched when all is said and
done...and probably some character death along the way too (it's
really all Prime is good for).

Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?
-- Rob -- adds, "I'm not even going to allow myself to think of
Legion v1 #300 for the near . . . err, future."

That Val and Una were supposed to be from the Johns Legion (as Val was
the one who stayed behind at the end of the Lightning Saga) but, as
you say, Countdown was a mess and it doesn't really track with
anything else that's been going on so I'd say it could be retconned or
just ignored.

D'Oh. This actually indicates that the Johns Legion is a full-fledged
parallel Earth and not a variant of the original Legion. Val being
there means that Johns ignored substantial parts of the Baxter series
-- like, the first five issues, for instance.

OTOH, I could have sworn they were from what has turned out to be the
Kamandi Earth (Earth-51?)

-- Rob

[Duggy]

Post by Rob Jensen
OTOH, I could have sworn they were from what has turned out to be the
Kamandi Earth (Earth-51?)

No, they ended up of the second Kamandi Earth [Earth-51B (Earth-51
recreated).

The first Kamandi Earth is Earth-16 or 17.

===
= DUG.
===

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Tue, 26 Aug 2008 02:22:19 GMT, grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Hansen
has there been any
speculation as to which Legion will be assigned to which Earth (I'm
posting from racdu)?

Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention. If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I agree with you that the Johns/"Classic Legion" should remain on
Earth-1 but I would reverse the other two, with the Dna/ZH Legion
being the Earth-1 team and the horrible Waid-Kitson version being
relegated to an Earth-to-be-determined.
Although I suspect that the "Classic Legion" will be assigned to the
New Earth timeline at the end of the miniseries.
Also, there's still the open question of whether or not New Earth is
Earth-1 -- yeah, that suspicious mislabelling of New Earth as Earth-1
in whichever Countdown spin-off it was (or was it Tangent: SR?). I
think at this point, even if New Earth and Earth-1 are currently
separate Earths, one of the easier fixes to continuity would be to
merge New Earth and Earth-1 by the end of Final Crisis proper.
Which I'm increasingly thinking should have been titled "Infinite
Crisis: Finale" just for the paradoxymoron pun of it.
-- Rob

Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...another
possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...as much as I hate to say it since this
is my favorite version of the Legion, I don't think it matters much
which earth they come from as we are unlikely to ever see them again
beyond this storyline...unless, of course, member(s) of this version
are incorporated into the others...it wouldn't surprise me at all if
the 3 Legions end up a little mixed & matched when all is said and
done...and probably some character death along the way too (it's
really all Prime is good for).

Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?

Well, the introduction of the classic Legion, encountered by both JLA &
JSA, had that Val & Lu be part of that crowd, and apparently they grew
up to become the "classic" adult Legion we're seeing now, so the logical
conclusion would be that they would've been part of the Johns Legion, as
you put it.

Not that logic has anything to do with it, but...

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?

Well, the introduction of the classic Legion, encountered by both JLA &
JSA, had that Val & Lu be part of that crowd, and apparently they grew
up to become the "classic" adult Legion we're seeing now, so the logical
conclusion would be that they would've been part of the Johns Legion, as
you put it.
Not that logic has anything to do with it, but...

OTOH, I did just remembr that Earth-22 has its own Legion of
Super-Heroes (as shown in Kingdom Come itself!) So there's yet
another possible Original Legion-ish Legion to confuse everybody with.

-- Rob

[Daibhid Ceanaideach]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died
in Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet
another variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after
Orion dying at least two if not three different ways between
Countdown, DotNG (*** note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis,
does identifying the Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?

Well, the introduction of the classic Legion, encountered by both JLA
& JSA, had that Val & Lu be part of that crowd, and apparently they
grew up to become the "classic" adult Legion we're seeing now, so the
logical conclusion would be that they would've been part of the Johns
Legion, as you put it.
Not that logic has anything to do with it, but...

OTOH, I did just remembr that Earth-22 has its own Legion of
Super-Heroes (as shown in Kingdom Come itself!) So there's yet
another possible Original Legion-ish Legion to confuse everybody with.

The Earth-22 Legion was closer to the Zero Hour Legion, I think.

[Keith Lee]

All:
According to the latest JSA stories, Earth 22 doesn't exist anymore.

Keith

[Paragon]

Post by Keith Lee
According to the latest JSA stories, Earth 22 doesn't exist anymore.
Keith

We don't really know for sure on that.

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Paragon

Post by Keith Lee
According to the latest JSA stories, Earth 22 doesn't exist anymore.
Keith

We don't really know for sure on that.

Well, to be fair, that *is* what Superman-22 said.

Whether he's telling the truth or not is another story.

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Paragon

Post by Keith Lee
According to the latest JSA stories, Earth 22 doesn't exist anymore.
Keith

We don't really know for sure on that.

Well, to be fair, that *is* what Superman-22 said.
Whether he's telling the truth or not is another story.

Whether he =knows= the truth or not is another story still.
--
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
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|| ----------- || ------------------------------------ ||
||Replace "-at-" with|| Keeping Usenet Trouble-Free ||
|| "@" to respond. || Since 1998 ||
------------------- ------------------------------------------------
"DC, currently, is run from the top down in a way that makes Jim
Shooter’s aegis at Marvel look like a hippie commune."
- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
<http://tinyurl.com/5rxsvp/#comment-665962>

[Rob Jensen]

Post by Paragon

Post by Keith Lee
According to the latest JSA stories, Earth 22 doesn't exist anymore.
Keith

We don't really know for sure on that.

Well, the *present* of Earth-22 is certainly a "great" nuclear
disaster. But clearly, the planet had long-since fully recovered by
the time of its Legion's existence.

-- Rob

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
Oh, creezus jyste, this reminds me -- are the Val and Una who died in
Countdown supposed to be from the Johns Legion or from yet another
variant? Earth-51 (The Monitor Nix's Earth)? And after Orion dying at
least two if not three different ways between Countdown, DotNG (***
note: my preferred version) and Final Crisis, does identifying the
Earth of that Val and Una even matter anymore?

Well, the introduction of the classic Legion, encountered by both JLA &
JSA, had that Val & Lu be part of that crowd, and apparently they grew
up to become the "classic" adult Legion we're seeing now, so the logical
conclusion would be that they would've been part of the Johns Legion, as
you put it.
Not that logic has anything to do with it, but...

OTOH, I did just remembr that Earth-22 has its own Legion of
Super-Heroes (as shown in Kingdom Come itself!) So there's yet
another possible Original Legion-ish Legion to confuse everybody with.
-- Rob

Hmmm, good point ... although it had Superboy and Supergirl together in
slightly modified outfits. (Quite well-done ones, in fact, especially if
you treat them as their descendents, rather than the time-displaced
originals.)

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon
Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.

The current Legion was created just prior to Infinite Crisis by one of
Superboy-Prime's Reality Altering Punches... so it was the Earth-prior
to Infinite Crisis's Legion. That could have changed when New Earth
and the 52 were created, but then Supergirl visited them post InfC...

The Superman could have, as a boy travelled dimensionally as well as
through time, but it feels better for it just to be time travel...

Post by grinningdemon
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...

Looks more like the Reboot Legion in KC.

Post by grinningdemon
aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.

Yeah, but in that they said that he spent time on Earth-22 on his way
to the present... implying that they weren't from that Earth.

Post by grinningdemon
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...

I think that if Earth-1 is Earth-One then the Lightning Saga Legion
works better there.

Post by grinningdemon
another possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...

Umm... that was during Infinite Crisis. Since then it's the
Extremists Earth.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 06:52:22 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
Unless they're changing things (which is not out of the question), the
Waid/Kitson Legion is from new earth...it's been said over and over in
interviews going back to the beginning of the series...that said, they
can't make up their minds whether or not new earth is earth-1 either
so this could still change.

The current Legion was created just prior to Infinite Crisis by one of
Superboy-Prime's Reality Altering Punches... so it was the Earth-prior
to Infinite Crisis's Legion. That could have changed when New Earth
and the 52 were created, but then Supergirl visited them post InfC...

After Infinite Crisis, when Supergirl joined, was when Waid was saying
in interviews that it was new earth's Legion and had been from the
beginning (meaning the whole series was meant to be post-Infinite
Crisis)...and the fact that they got the ongoing book is another good
indication...but they may well have changed their minds so anything's
possible.

Post by Duggy
The Superman could have, as a boy travelled dimensionally as well as
through time, but it feels better for it just to be time travel...

Post by grinningdemon
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...

Looks more like the Reboot Legion in KC.

If you go by that single panel...but they've already changed Kingdom
Come continuity during the course of the JSA storyline and we know
from other post-IC earths that even the ones based on older Elseworlds
books aren't necessarily an exact match...and, even if that panel
remains acurate, we don't know the point in the Legion timeline it
comes from so there's a lot of wiggle room there.

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
aside from the Starman/boy connection, Johns is focusing a lot
on ties to this earth in JSA so I wouldn't be surprised if he's
carrying that over...especially since this version first appeared in a
JLA/JSA crossover.

Yeah, but in that they said that he spent time on Earth-22 on his way
to the present... implying that they weren't from that Earth.

It could be read that way...or it could be that they were from E-22
and that's why he stopped off there or maybe even that they don't know
for sure which earth they're from...it may not be clear in the
Legion's future.

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...

I think that if Earth-1 is Earth-One then the Lightning Saga Legion
works better there.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
another possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...

Umm... that was during Infinite Crisis. Since then it's the
Extremists Earth.

Well...whichever earth the newer heroes are from...it popped up during
Countdown but I forget the number...of course, I think Superboy-prime
killed them all but it could still be OK in the future.

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon

 That could have changed when New Earth
and the 52 were created, but then Supergirl visited them post InfC...

After Infinite Crisis, when Supergirl joined,

Exactly.

Post by grinningdemon
was when Waid was saying
in interviews that it was new earth's Legion and had been from the
beginning (meaning the whole series was meant to be post-Infinite
Crisis)...

Yes, it was created by Infinite Crisis.

Post by grinningdemon
and the fact that they got the ongoing book is another good
indication...but they may well have changed their minds so anything's
possible.

Well, that's the point really. Johns helped midwife this new group...
and then works on the next one.

Quicker than Waid's two reboots.

Post by grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon
My guess is that the "original" Legion is from the Kingdom Come
earth...

Looks more like the Reboot Legion in KC.

If you go by that single panel...but they've already changed Kingdom
Come continuity

I accept that 100%. The new Earths are look-alikes, not exact, so
ignoring a single panel is pretty easy.

Post by grinningdemon
and, even if that panel
remains acurate, we don't know the point in the Legion timeline it
comes from so there's a lot of wiggle room there.

Or if it's accurate or representative.

Post by grinningdemon

Yeah, but in that they said that he spent time on Earth-22 on his way
to the present... implying that they weren't from that Earth.

It could be read that way...or it could be that they were from E-22
and that's why he stopped off there or maybe even that they don't know
for sure which earth they're from...it may not be clear in the
Legion's future.

Well, it's certainly not clear for us.

Post by grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon
As the Post ZH Legion, it's anyone's guess...if there is an earth-1
that is NOT new earth, then that would be a likely suspect...

I think that if Earth-1 is Earth-One then the Lightning Saga Legion
works better there.

I suppose we'll just have to wait and see.

Then again, it only really works better in they spend time with the
Earth-1 Superboy. With the New Earth Superboy it doesn't really
matter what Earth they come from, I guess.

Post by grinningdemon

Post by grinningdemon
another possibility would be earth-8, where the newer heroes that have shown
up since CoIE reign supreme...

Umm... that was during Infinite Crisis.  Since then it's the
Extremists Earth.

Well...whichever earth the newer heroes are from...it popped up during
Countdown but I forget the number...of course, I think Superboy-prime
killed them all but it could still be OK in the future.

Earth-15? (51 & 15 were the ones I recall being destroyed)...

Well, he destroyed the planet, IIRC, but assuming that the planets
have an entire history and he changed that, so they "had" a future...

Zod-as-Superman and Wonder Woman & Batman retiring and the next
generation taking their roles... rather than the InfC Earth-8. It
could work, the Superman refs may have to be played with...

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 22:42:11 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy
Earth-15? (51 & 15 were the ones I recall being destroyed)...
Well, he destroyed the planet, IIRC, but assuming that the planets
have an entire history and he changed that, so they "had" a future...
Zod-as-Superman and Wonder Woman & Batman retiring and the next
generation taking their roles... rather than the InfC Earth-8. It
could work, the Superman refs may have to be played with...

Then again, they might just ignore Countdown entirely like Final
Crisis does.

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon
Then again, they might just ignore Countdown entirely like Final
Crisis does.

If you wanted to actually use the 52 worlds, then, yeah, ignoring
Countdown, and especially Arena would be a good start.

===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

Post by David Goldfarb
Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been paying
much attention.  If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and the Legion"
on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth, and the post-Zero
Hour team on some otherwise-unused Earth...along with a handwave about
how time travellers tend to slip between earths (thus explaining how
the Zero Hour team ended up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1).
But I'm *not* doing it.

I'd be fine ignoring the "errors" in the Kingdom Come panel and making
the Reboot Legion Earth-22's.

Current and Lightning Saga are problematic, because Johns has
suggested both are New Earth's future.

===
= DUG.
===

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Duggy

Post by David Goldfarb
Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been
paying much attention.  If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and
the Legion" on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth,
and the post-Zero Hour team on some otherwise-unused
Earth...along with a handwave about how time travellers tend to
slip between earths (thus explaining how the Zero Hour team ended
up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1

).

Post by David Goldfarb
But I'm *not* doing it.

I'd be fine ignoring the "errors" in the Kingdom Come panel and
making the Reboot Legion Earth-22's.
Current and Lightning Saga are problematic, because Johns has
suggested both are New Earth's future.

Maybe Johns is suggesting that the timeline isn't a straight arrow
and that either is still potentially viable. I would think the
same is also true of Conner's Legion.

[Duggy]

Post by Dan McEwen
Maybe Johns is suggesting that the timeline isn't a straight arrow
and that either is still potentially viable.  I would think the
same is also true of Conner's Legion.

Most the Legions belong to the changing timeline of the main Earth.

Pre-Crisis belongs to Earth-1.
Post-Crisis belongs to the merged Earth that it became.
Reboot was created by the Zero Hour event.
The current Legion was created by Superboy punching the reality wall.
It could have been written out by the Infinite Crisis changes, but it
clearly wasn't.

It's only really the Lightning Saga Legion that has trouble fitting
the main timeline.

Of course, because Superman remembered them before 52 week 52 it means
that they aren't one of the 52 universes, either.

Branching timelines may explain it.

===
= DUG.
===

[OM]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 16:59:08 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy
The current Legion was created by Superboy punching the reality wall.
It could have been written out by the Infinite Crisis changes, but it
clearly wasn't.

...Not yet, at least. Give Johns time, because the whole Waid Debacle
v2 is about to get wiped out forever. And good fucking riddance.

OM

[grinningdemon]

On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Duggy

Post by David Goldfarb
Not that I've seen, but I can't honestly say that I've been
paying much attention.  If I were doing it, I'd put "Superman and
the Legion" on Earth-1, the Waid-Kitson new team on New Earth,
and the post-Zero Hour team on some otherwise-unused
Earth...along with a handwave about how time travellers tend to
slip between earths (thus explaining how the Zero Hour team ended
up on New Earth, and how Superman got to Earth-1

).

Post by David Goldfarb
But I'm *not* doing it.

I'd be fine ignoring the "errors" in the Kingdom Come panel and
making the Reboot Legion Earth-22's.
Current and Lightning Saga are problematic, because Johns has
suggested both are New Earth's future.

Maybe Johns is suggesting that the timeline isn't a straight arrow
and that either is still potentially viable. I would think the
same is also true of Conner's Legion.

Given the emphasis on the multiverse since its return, I doubt they'd
pass up the opportunity to assign the different Legions to different
earths.

[Dan McEwen]

Post by grinningdemon
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Duggy
Current and Lightning Saga are problematic, because Johns has
suggested both are New Earth's future.

Maybe Johns is suggesting that the timeline isn't a straight arrow
and that either is still potentially viable. I would think the
same is also true of Conner's Legion.

Given the emphasis on the multiverse since its return, I doubt
they'd pass up the opportunity to assign the different Legions to
different earths.

Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

[Duggy]

Post by Dan McEwen
Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

I can only think of two.

New-Earth Superman was a member of the Lightning Legion when he was a
lad.
New-Earth Supergirl was a member of the current Legion recently.

Pre-Infinite Crisis Superboy was a member of the Reboot Legion, but
that was before the changes were made to New-Earth. If Wonder Woman
can arrive in man's world earlier and Superman can have been active as
a boy then Superboy doesn't have to have been in the LSH. All you
need is a different reason for the Teen Titans to have met the
Tomorrow Titans.

Impulse was never a member (AFAIK) but has ties to the Reboot Legion
(XS), but she can be written out of his history.

Hmmm... Bart & Conner are both dead... maybe they're trying to erase
all connections to the Reboot Legion.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy

Post by Dan McEwen
Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

I can only think of two.
New-Earth Superman was a member of the Lightning Legion when he was a
lad.
New-Earth Supergirl was a member of the current Legion recently.
Pre-Infinite Crisis Superboy was a member of the Reboot Legion, but
that was before the changes were made to New-Earth. If Wonder Woman
can arrive in man's world earlier and Superman can have been active as
a boy then Superboy doesn't have to have been in the LSH. All you
need is a different reason for the Teen Titans to have met the
Tomorrow Titans.
Impulse was never a member (AFAIK) but has ties to the Reboot Legion
(XS), but she can be written out of his history.
Hmmm... Bart & Conner are both dead... maybe they're trying to erase
all connections to the Reboot Legion.

That seems unlikely...we already know the reboot Legion still has
connections to new earth because, in a recent issue of Action Comics
(immediately following the Superman & the Legion arc), Batman says
he's met three different versions of the Legion...he met several
members of the reboot Legion when they were trapped in the 20th
century for a while and interacted with many of the present day heroes
during the Final Night crossover...he was sent into the future in
Brave & the Bold where he met the Waid/Kitson Legion...and, of course,
he met members of the "original" Legion during the Lightning Saga (as
well as their Lightning Lad in the very story I'm talking about)...so
all three Legions still have ties to new earth.

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy
Hmmm... Bart & Conner are both dead... maybe they're trying to erase
all connections to the Reboot Legion.

That seems unlikely...

It was a tongue in cheek comment. To link the killing-off-Teen-Titans
to something else...

BTW, I realised the other day that J'Onn's added to the JLI death-
toll.

Post by grinningdemon
we already know the reboot Legion still has
connections to new earth because, in a recent issue of Action Comics
(immediately following the Superman & the Legion arc), Batman says
he's met three different versions of the Legion...

And Superman mention the 3 worlds... and are meeting them again as we
speak.

Post by grinningdemon
he met several
members of the reboot Legion when they were trapped in the 20th
century for a while and interacted with many of the present day heroes
during the Final Night crossover...he was sent into the future in
Brave & the Bold where he met the Waid/Kitson Legion...and, of course,
he met members of the "original" Legion during the Lightning Saga (as
well as their Lightning Lad in the very story I'm talking about)...so
all three Legions still have ties to new earth.

All three have crossed over with New Earth, having ties is slightly
different.

Although to hear the Reboot journey to the 20th Century still counts
is interesting... although, hasn't DC said that people can remember
things differently after New Earth...?

The memory problem I think that they really screwed up was Superman
meeting the Reboot team in the 20th Century...

Superman was one of the 8 (I think) characters that survived the
reboot of the universe in Zero Hour. Immediately afterward He and
Lois compared memories so he knew what differences there were between
his memories and the new history of the DCU.

When he met the LSH during Final Night he referenced their old names
and Time & Again (I think). Now, clearly he should remember the Pre-
ZeroHour team from that story even if it doesn't exist anymore...

However, to explain it as part of the Time Trapper's creation of
alternate Legions they threw in a Superman-Meets-Pre-ZH look-alike
Legion. Silly and pointless.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:00:57 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 17:02:03 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy
Hmmm... Bart & Conner are both dead... maybe they're trying to erase
all connections to the Reboot Legion.

That seems unlikely...

It was a tongue in cheek comment. To link the killing-off-Teen-Titans
to something else...
BTW, I realised the other day that J'Onn's added to the JLI death-
toll.

Post by grinningdemon
we already know the reboot Legion still has
connections to new earth because, in a recent issue of Action Comics
(immediately following the Superman & the Legion arc), Batman says
he's met three different versions of the Legion...

And Superman mention the 3 worlds... and are meeting them again as we
speak.

Right...and that story also picks up with the Reboot Legion still
stuck in Limbo from the end of the Teen Titans/Legion Special...which
suggests Conner is still in play with them.

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
he met several
members of the reboot Legion when they were trapped in the 20th
century for a while and interacted with many of the present day heroes
during the Final Night crossover...he was sent into the future in
Brave & the Bold where he met the Waid/Kitson Legion...and, of course,
he met members of the "original" Legion during the Lightning Saga (as
well as their Lightning Lad in the very story I'm talking about)...so
all three Legions still have ties to new earth.

All three have crossed over with New Earth, having ties is slightly
different.
Although to hear the Reboot journey to the 20th Century still counts
is interesting...

And I'd say it constitutes "ties"...Superman and Supergirl each spent
time with two other Legions and the third came to them (well,
Superman, at least).

although, hasn't DC said that people can remember

Post by Duggy
things differently after New Earth...

We only know about the changes they tell us about...and, if they went
to all the trouble to mention that the reboot Legion still spent time
in the present day DCU and didn't mention any changes to that event,
we have no reason to believe they remember it differently.

The only mention of memory changes I can remember was that some people
remember (or kind of half-remember) the old multiverse...I don't
remember they modifying that for new earth.

Post by Duggy
The memory problem I think that they really screwed up was Superman
meeting the Reboot team in the 20th Century...
Superman was one of the 8 (I think) characters that survived the
reboot of the universe in Zero Hour. Immediately afterward He and
Lois compared memories so he knew what differences there were between
his memories and the new history of the DCU.
When he met the LSH during Final Night he referenced their old names
and Time & Again (I think). Now, clearly he should remember the Pre-
ZeroHour team from that story even if it doesn't exist anymore...
However, to explain it as part of the Time Trapper's creation of
alternate Legions they threw in a Superman-Meets-Pre-ZH look-alike
Legion. Silly and pointless.
===
= DUG.
===

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Duggy
And Superman mention the 3 worlds... and are meeting them again as we
speak.

Right...and that story also picks up with the Reboot Legion still
stuck in Limbo from the end of the Teen Titans/Legion Special...which
suggests Conner is still in play with them.

Well, if they're connected to Final Night then there's no reason to
think that any of their connections with the New Earth are missing
(although Impulse/XS might (*might*) get messy).

I'm not sure that they're needed to make Final Night work (Brainy can
be written out of the scientist stuff, Ferro tried by didn't actually
do much...)

Post by grinningdemon
And I'd say it constitutes "ties"...Superman and Supergirl each spent
time with two other Legions and the third came to them (well,
Superman, at least).
although, hasn't DC said that people can remember

Post by Duggy
things differently after New Earth...

We only know about the changes they tell us about...and, if they went
to all the trouble to mention that the reboot Legion still spent time
in the present day DCU and didn't mention any changes to that event,
we have no reason to believe they remember it differently.

No, I mean there were references to history books being wrong, two
people remembering events differently.

I hate the idea, but they could use it to say "Batman *remembers* LSH
in Final Night but it didn't happen in the current history"

Post by grinningdemon
The only mention of memory changes I can remember was that some people
remember (or kind of half-remember) the old multiverse...I don't
remember they modifying that for new earth.

Exactly.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 21:20:48 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Duggy
And Superman mention the 3 worlds... and are meeting them again as we
speak.

Right...and that story also picks up with the Reboot Legion still
stuck in Limbo from the end of the Teen Titans/Legion Special...which
suggests Conner is still in play with them.

Well, if they're connected to Final Night then there's no reason to
think that any of their connections with the New Earth are missing
(although Impulse/XS might (*might*) get messy).
I'm not sure that they're needed to make Final Night work (Brainy can
be written out of the scientist stuff, Ferro tried by didn't actually
do much...)

They may not be necessary but Final Night was mentioned in that
conversation between Batman and Superman so, until/unless they say
otherwise, the reboot Legion's role there is still intact
continuity-wise.

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
And I'd say it constitutes "ties"...Superman and Supergirl each spent
time with two other Legions and the third came to them (well,
Superman, at least).
although, hasn't DC said that people can remember

Post by Duggy
things differently after New Earth...

We only know about the changes they tell us about...and, if they went
to all the trouble to mention that the reboot Legion still spent time
in the present day DCU and didn't mention any changes to that event,
we have no reason to believe they remember it differently.

No, I mean there were references to history books being wrong, two
people remembering events differently.
I hate the idea, but they could use it to say "Batman *remembers* LSH
in Final Night but it didn't happen in the current history"

That would be pretty stupid...and, I could be wrong, but I think
Superman remembered them too.

And why would they bother to change it? They've still got two other
Legions connected to new earth so what would be the point in excluding
this one?

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Duggy
I'm not sure that they're needed to make Final Night work (Brainy can
be written out of the scientist stuff, Ferro tried by didn't actually
do much...)

They may not be necessary but Final Night was mentioned in that
conversation between Batman and Superman so, until/unless they say
otherwise, the reboot Legion's role there is still intact
continuity-wise.

Yes. I can read.

I'm saying they could have been written out by Infinite Crisis without
damaging the existing stories, IMHO.

Post by grinningdemon

Post by Duggy
No, I mean there were references to history books being wrong, two
people remembering events differently.
I hate the idea, but they could use it to say "Batman *remembers* LSH
in Final Night but it didn't happen in the current history"

That would be pretty stupid...

The whole idea of different memories is... but it would be an out if
they ever decided to reverse the Reboot appearnces.

Post by grinningdemon
and, I could be wrong, but I think Superman remembered them too.

Two people can have the same false memory.

Post by grinningdemon
And why would they bother to change it?  They've still got two other
Legions connected to new earth so what would be the point in excluding
this one?

To make things less messy.

I'm not saying they should, I'm saying it's an out that's already
there if they ever wanted to use it.

That said when there's an obvious built in out they'll always go for
the stupid, confusing, problem-causing rather than solving route.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by grinningdemon
On Tue, 21 Oct 2008 23:27:54 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen

Post by Duggy
Current and Lightning Saga are problematic, because Johns has
suggested both are New Earth's future.

Maybe Johns is suggesting that the timeline isn't a straight arrow
and that either is still potentially viable. I would think the
same is also true of Conner's Legion.

Given the emphasis on the multiverse since its return, I doubt
they'd pass up the opportunity to assign the different Legions to
different earths.

Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

Why? There are characters running around new earth that come from
other earths...why not other earths' futures?

[Duggy]

Post by grinningdemon
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen
Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

Why?  There are characters running around new earth that come from
other earths...why not other earths' futures?

You know what... I'm beginning to agree with the Rogue Monitor and his
"kill all dimensional travellers" theory.

It's just getting so messy.

===
= DUG.
===

[grinningdemon]

On Thu, 23 Oct 2008 20:06:41 -0700 (PDT), Duggy

Post by Duggy

Post by grinningdemon
On Wed, 22 Oct 2008 23:28:26 +0000 (UTC), Dan McEwen

Post by Dan McEwen
Maybe, but it then becomes more difficult to explain why three
characters from New Earth were members of LSH's from three different
universes.

Why?  There are characters running around new earth that come from
other earths...why not other earths' futures?

You know what... I'm beginning to agree with the Rogue Monitor and his
"kill all dimensional travellers" theory.
It's just getting so messy.
===
= DUG.
===

This is why I'd rather they never brought back the multiverse...I was
fine with the Elseworlds system.

[grinningdemon]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.

They might be able to kill him, but they would certainly break a sweat
doing so. (I'm suddenly flashing on a bit from the Iliad I read recently
where Zeus got Poseidon to stop helping out the Greeks....)

Post by Rob Jensen
Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).

...Oh. *That's* why Element Lad is MIA. Any bets that the other
two Legions will have their Jans unavailable for some reason also?
(Didn't the reboot Jan get killed off in _Legion Lost_?)

He did and he didn't...technically, Jan and Garth killed each
other...but Garth survived in Jan's body...with his powers...but he
never really got the chance to learn how to properly use those powers
before the next reboot.

[Joe Sewell]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Rob Jensen
Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).

...Oh. *That's* why Element Lad is MIA. Any bets that the other
two Legions will have their Jans unavailable for some reason also?
(Didn't the reboot Jan get killed off in _Legion Lost_?)

So did Monstress, yet she appears in the single-page image. It's hard
telling from which time period we'll see them gathered.

[plausible prose man]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.  Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno.  Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it).  Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).  Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime.  Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.

And yet, somehow I suspect no one will have a better thought-out
battle plan than "attack pattern murdered-by-the-carful.," wherein
groups of one to four legionairres, most of whom are roughly as strong
and able to absorb damage as the average reader of the comic in
question, will surround Prime and use the Venkman-Stantz "get her!"
take down.

Post by Rob Jensen
There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.

I thought Kryptonite didn't work on Prime, since his Krypton never
exploded.

[YKW (ad hoc)]

Post by plausible prose man

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.  Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno.  Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it).  Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).  Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime.  Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.

And yet, somehow I suspect no one will have a better thought-out
battle plan than "attack pattern murdered-by-the-carful.," wherein
groups of one to four legionairres, most of whom are roughly as strong
and able to absorb damage as the average reader of the comic in
question, will surround Prime and use the Venkman-Stantz "get her!"
take down.

I can't see Johns writing any Legion-related team (other than perhaps the
very earliest incarnations of the SA Subs) as quite that incompetent.
Giffen, sure, but not Johns...

Post by plausible prose man

Post by Rob Jensen
There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.

I thought Kryptonite didn't work on Prime, since his Krypton never
exploded.

That was what I was referencing early on in the thread about what -would-
-have- -been- Kryptonite in the Earth-Prime-verse; Jan would have to have
Brainy theorize the nature of a universe that no longer exist and posit
how that universe's Krypton and its rubble might have been altered if it
had actually blown up.(*) And each universe's Kryptonite tends to work
only on Kryptonians from that Universe, in any event, so just coming up
with generic "Kryptonite" wouldn't be of much use.

=Transmuting= Prime to Kryptonite -- any flavor -- now that sounds like a
plan.

(*) Which should take him at least half an issue.
--
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- Chuck Dixon, COMICS SHOULD BE GOOD, 14 June 2008.
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[plausible prose man]

Post by YKW (ad hoc)

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.  Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno.  Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it).  Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice).  Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime.  Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.

 And yet, somehow I suspect no one will have a better thought-out
battle plan than "attack patternmurdered-by-the-carful.," wherein
groups of one to four legionairres, most of whom are roughly as strong
and able to absorb damage as the average reader of the comic in
question, will surround Prime and use the Venkman-Stantz "get her!"
take down.

I can't see Johns writing any Legion-related team (other than perhaps the
very earliest incarnations of the SA Subs) as quite that incompetent.

Didn't Johns write "Infinite Crisis"? Yeah, so pretty much the
strategy is going to be "AP: MBTCF." and not, say, Mon-el and Wildfire
fix SBP in position and Shadow Lass envelops him in darkness. Mon-el
withdraws and Sunboy cooks him with red solar radiation, and then
Night Girl or Karate Kid beat the crap out of him. I would also note
that Red Solar Radiation seems to make every other Kryptonian
powerless immediately, (see the issue of Supergirl where she's
ambushed by Batgirl, or Red Son, etc.) Even if you say it should take
time to work, well, cooking in the dark should synergize.

And I bet Brainiac V could come up with an even better plan, huh?

Post by YKW (ad hoc)
Giffen, sure, but not Johns...

No, I'm very confident in what I say.

Post by YKW (ad hoc)

Post by Rob Jensen
There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.

I thought Kryptonite didn't work on Prime, since his Krypton never
exploded.

That was what I was referencing early on in the thread about what -would-
-have- -been- Kryptonite in the Earth-Prime-verse; Jan would have to have
Brainy theorize the nature of a universe that no longer exist and posit
how that universe's Krypton and its rubble might have been altered if it
had actually blown up.(*)

You'd sure need a lot of explanation for anyone to accept that.

[Duggy]

 And yet, somehow I suspect no one will have a better thought-out
battle plan than "attack pattern murdered-by-the-carful.," wherein
groups of one to four legionairres, most of whom are roughly as strong
and able to absorb damage as the average reader of the comic in
question, will surround Prime and use the Venkman-Stantz "get her!"
take down.

"Get her? That was your whole plan, "get her"?"

I thought Kryptonite didn't work on Prime, since his Krypton never
exploded.

Oh, sure, bring previous stories, or "continuity" into this. Do you
know nothing about comics?

===
= DUG.
===

[Joe Sewell]

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl. Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno. Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it). Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice). Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime. Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.
There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.
-- Rob

Supergirl in the WKRP Legion isn't powerful enough. One of the three
Lars still suffers from lead poisoning. Superboy-Prime is invulnerable
to magic *and* has no Kryptonite (his Krypton fell into its sun), and
it's been established (as if that means anything) that one Earth's
Kryptonite won't afflict the Superman from another. SB-P could even
outrace a twelfth-level intellect.

[Brenda Clough]

Post by Joe Sewell

Post by Rob Jensen
On Fri, 22 Aug 2008 02:16:54 -0500, "Magnus, Robot Fighter"

There are two legionairres who could kill him without breaking a
sweat. They are.....?
(Assuming of course they were actually allowed to use their powers on
him)

Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl. Eight, if you count three Sun Boys and Inferno. Nine if
you include White Witch and her magic (more if there's more than one
version of WW among the three Legions -- and I'm counting all of this
off the top of my head just to see if I can do it). Fourteen if you
count all three Element Lads and their abilities to transmute any
substance into Green and/or Gold Kryptonite (depending on their
Kryptonite of choice). Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime. Eighteen if you count the
Brainys coordinating any attack by any combination of the above on
Prime.
There are probably others that I'm leaving out, but heck, even if all
three Legions stuck with the code against killing, any of the Element
Lads could strip Prime of his powers by transmuting anything into Gold
Kryptonite.
-- Rob

Supergirl in the WKRP Legion isn't powerful enough. One of the three
Lars still suffers from lead poisoning. Superboy-Prime is invulnerable
to magic *and* has no Kryptonite (his Krypton fell into its sun), and
it's been established (as if that means anything) that one Earth's
Kryptonite won't afflict the Superman from another. SB-P could even
outrace a twelfth-level intellect.

I would actually select Saturn Girl. Veteran LSH readers will recall
the time when she grabbed the mental chains of Mon-El and Ultra Boy, and
twisted. She rarely pulls out all the stops -- she rarely has to. This
would be a great time.

Brenda

[Duggy]

Post by Rob Jensen
Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda and
Supergirl.

How many of those characters are Pre-Crisis level?

I'm assuming that the Lightning Saga Superboy, being the current
Superman as a boy, would be weaker than Superboy-Prime. The Daxamites
would be equivalent strenght to the Supermen.

Post by Rob Jensen
Fifteen if you count Gates and assume that he
can teleport only a segment of Prime.

Does it matter if he can transport him into the heart of a Red Sun?

===
= DUG.
===

[Dan McEwen]

Post by Duggy

Post by Rob Jensen
Well, at the very least four if you count two Mon-Els, Andromeda
and Supergirl.

How many of those characters are Pre-Crisis level?

Mon-El and almost certainly Supergirl. She seems to be the heavy
hitter of the current Kryptonians.